I think it is feasible that one of the trade organizations compile the data. In my experience here in Washington, the AFSA members seem more likely to use CPVC pipe but the local sales people would need to consider that. We do have our local AFSA meeting tomorrow night....... and Ron Greenman should be there so he should be able to put it on the topic list. I'll try and get there, too.
Michael M. Fitz, P.E., C.F.I. MDE Inc. 700 S. Industrial Way Seattle, WA 98108 www.MDE.com 206-321-1804 -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of George Church Sent: Monday, November 09, 2009 10:52 AM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: Incompatible products with CPVC Michael- Yes, you were certainly invited. And with your joint membership and a lot better understanding of what steps are followed in a claim, do you think it is feasible that one of the Associations would undertake this? I haven't had a response from either yet, but I'd only forwarded the thread, not made a direct request for help. glc -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Michael Fitz Sent: Monday, November 09, 2009 1:37 PM To: [email protected] Cc: 'Keith' Subject: RE: Incompatible products with CPVC Hello forum members, I'm not sure the forum is the appropriate place for me to do a sales response but since I was asked..... and since I don't know Top, we should talk. I specialize in fires/explosions/fire protection systems but MDE has several other specialists for a variety of problems. Keith Cline is a great materials engineer who has done a lot of steel and CPVC work and not just related to sprinkler systems. We can and do water testing for MIC and general corrosivity but since we don't provide water treatment chemicals or cleaning services, there are other companies that provide the testing services for less money than we can. However, we do analyze failed installations and components - pipes, sprinklers, gaskets, freezing, etc. for root cause analysis. Enough with the sales pitch. A couple of points that should be considered: 1. A nationwide reporting location would be very helpful. This helps document problems that are nationwide v. local. Local problems could be caused by one contractor, unusual weather, a bad batch of material, the local training group, local practices or a manufacturer that sells in one area. 2. A reporting location/group that crosses both AFSA and NFSA membership. There are other relevant organizations (NFPA, SFPE, FP Contractor, etc.) but my thoughts are that the people in the field doing the work need to be able to provide input into the "system". I do see different failure issues between AFSA and NFSA here in Washington, primarily because in the different projects that each group does. Insurance companies may collect some of the information we need but it probably would not be released for competitive purposes. 3. Development of the database should start with a division of types of problems. I would suggest that the database not be limited to CPVC pipe failures/problems although that seems to be one of the biggest problem areas right now. 4. A database of local experts that are qualified to analyze failures can be valuable since they could be used for training at local meetings. 5. As far as consideration of litigation cases - if the loss was big, it almost certainly is going to be involved with a claim and possible litigation. However, with permission of the insurance company or attorney, it should be reportable to the database. And now a general comment about how difficult it will be to establish a database to help find out the causes ..... because comprehensive information is needed, such as details of the installation, photographs, dates of installation, manufacturer of products, date of manufacture, brand of glue, etc.; all are important to analyze the failure. For example, we might need the date of manufacture to identify a bad batch. Installation dimensions are critical to rule out inadequate expansion provisions. How about temperature of installation or weather during delivery of pipe to rule out rough handling on a freezing day? What about getting a water sample from a filled branch to determine if there was contamination in the system? Taking a sample from the inlet will probably give you good water after a water loss and thousands of gallons of flowed water. How do you identify the brand of fire stop 3 years later? Or the brand of cutting fluid used by the contractor? Sometimes all we can find is the evidence of incompatible material but have no way to identify how it got there and who is responsible. Just to be clear (after the last pessimistic paragraph), I think it would be a great idea to set up the database. Unlike consumer products that have the CPSC to help track items, the building profession doesn't have a similar system. UL is worthless in this respect as they don't track the failures and modify standards or pull listings unless someone forces them to. I'm a member of AFSA, NFSA, NFPA and SFPE so I can present or publish some of the data through these groups but frankly, the data should be presented to the group most directly affected, the AFSA and NFSA members. My hypothesis is that the CPVC manufacturers will eventually come up with interior and exterior liners (multilayer extrusions) like was done with PEX (and steel) to eliminate some of the incompatibility issues and sensitivity to chemicals. As Top said, CPVC is too good a material not to be able to use it safely and reliably. Michael Michael M. Fitz, P.E., C.F.I. MDE Inc. 700 S. Industrial Way Seattle, WA 98108 www.MDE.com 206-321-1804 __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 4589 (20091109) __________ The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. http://www.eset.com _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
