All: Was this guide written to before or after the 13-D committee added the min gpm/sf requirement?
Yours, Bruce Verhei ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ron Greenman" <rongreen...@gmail.com> To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Sent: Thursday, January 14, 2010 3:49:02 PM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific Subject: Re: Fire Departments - Inspection of residential systems faster, but just as sure... Or sadly, one of their children. On Thu, Jan 14, 2010 at 3:40 PM, Jim Johnston <j...@inlandfireprotection.com> wrote: > We had this very discussion at work yesterday. If Washington State were > actually successful in adopting the IRC as it reads I personally don't > believe there are enough sprinkler companies to do the work as conventional > (bid, design, permit, then install and test). We discussed how electricians > do residential work, I believe the 13D would have to follow suit, i.e. put > the heads where needed and follow up with a bucket test, if it doesn’t > produce the right flow put in an inline pump. We need to remember our > industry isn't an exact science, in college I designed machine tooling for a > production facility with .003" tolerances - that's nerve racking, we get to > work with feet and inches in the sprinkler industry - just don't exceed the > maximum spacing and produce the listed flows and pressures no problem. Most > of us that have been doing this for awhile know what pipe size we need - the > calcs are just a formality to prove our pipe sizes with the available water > supply. > > Ron, FYI the Commissioners for Yakima County have told the Fire Marshal's > Office that the sprinkler requirements will be exempt from homes and I > believe the Yakima City Council will do the same. We've got a lot of > experts out there making political decisions for the fire service - just > makes you wonder how people sleep at night maybe one of them will fall into > the 3000 annual fire deaths statistic? > > Jim Johnston, P.E. > Fire Protection Engineer > Inland Fire Protection, Inc > 1100 Ahtanum Road > Yakima, WA 98903 > Phone 509-248-4471 > Fax 509-248-1180 > j...@inlandfireprotection.com > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Ron Greenman [mailto:rongreen...@gmail.com] > Sent: Thursday, January 14, 2010 3:00 PM > To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org > Subject: Re: Fire Departments - Inspection of residential systems faster, > but just as sure... > > I reviewed this about ten years ago and I found the concept to be good > but there were many anomalies in the execution that put me off. I > don't recall what the exact issues were but the taste they left in my > mouth drove me back to 13D exclusively. On the other hand the rule of > thumb or schedule method in the 2009 IRC is not too bad. If I were an > AHJ I might consider letting owner builders do things per this method, > without the detailed plans, and then inspect the c**p (my favorite > word this week) out of them. As Scot points out electrical work in a > house is done without detailed plans and typically without load calcs > although they are required. In the case of house wiring the > prescription itself pretty much forces that the minimum be met. The > only true variables then are power supply (leads into the building are > sized appropriately) and the quality of workmanship. And for the rest > of you old guys, remember when we used to schedule major commercial > and industrial projects? We're talking houses here and houses are > something insurance companies don't even care about. > > On Thu, Jan 14, 2010 at 10:06 AM, Chris Cahill <chr...@sentryfiremn.com> > wrote: >> Good to remind all of this. I was not part of the development but did >> review it around that time. I found it to be rather good. The math was >> sound for the time. What I mean is this was before the 0.05 and the > modern >> crop of res heads so I can't swear the GPM and pressures are the same. >> >> Why it wasn't used more is two fold. First, there really wasn't much res >> sprinkler work at the time. This document was a little ahead of it's > time. >> Even today in the big picture there aren't many res sprinkler put in >> compared to the total SFH work. >> >> And second and most important was the fire marshals were very hesitant to >> accept. They wanted full detailed plans and HW calcs. I got very > negative >> feedback from those I introduced it to. Perhaps that is a positive in >> education and value done on 13 systems? I'd be curious to know since this >> was developed in MD and there are counties in MD that have been requiring >> SFH sprinklers do they use this in MD? How about AZ or GA or IL the other >> hotbeds for SFH sprinklers? >> >> >> Chris Cahill, P.E. >> Fire Protection Engineer >> Sentry Fire Protection, Inc. >> >> 763-658-4483 >> 763-658-4921 fax >> >> Email: chr...@sentryfiremn.com >> >> Mail: P.O. Box 69 >> Waverly, MN 55390 >> >> Location: 4439 Hwy 12 SW >> Waverly, MN 55390 >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org >> [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of å... .... >> Sent: Thursday, January 14, 2010 11:51 AM >> To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org >> Subject: Fire Departments - Inspection of residential systems faster, but >> just as sure... >> >> For jurisdictions facing budget >> cuts in their fire prevention departments, >> consider a document framed in 1995 by >> the US Fire Administration and conceived >> by Eric Schmidt, then FPE with Prince George's County >> Maryland. The 80 page document provides >> a method whereby residential sprinkler >> installation can be accomplished in a manner >> similar to how a journeyman electrician wires >> in electrical fixtures on a 20 Amp circuit... >> without plan submittal; simply an inspection. >> >> There are hydraulic calcs used to prove the system. >> But the method is so simplified that inspectors need not >> use Hazen-Williams. The method can >> eliminate sprinkler plan submittal for a deferred approval >> at inspection. A target-zone concept is used for sprinkler >> placement that allows for flexibility of field >> changes, while retaining assurance that supply still >> meets hydraulic demand. >> >> Jurisdictions interested in this significant time >> saving tool may find it through google at US >> Fire Administation's website using keywords: >> >> express residential sprinkler design guide US Fire Administration >> >> the downside is> >> designers make less money as there is no plan submittal >> the process is so easy even a plumber could attempt it ;-) >> >> the upside is> >> 1. fire departments use less time to approve residential >> sprinkler systems >> 2. fire department inspectors need only minimal amount of training >> >> This method might have been buried for 15 years, >> because it made the process -- too simple. It also >> might have been buried and forgotten for 15 years >> for reasons beyond my comprehension. I just mention >> it here in an attempt to get more sprinklers installed >> better and faster. >> >> >> scot deal >> excelsior fire >> _______________________________________________ >> Sprinklerforum mailing list >> Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org >> http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum >> >> For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org >> >> To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org >> (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Sprinklerforum mailing list >> Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org >> http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum >> >> For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org >> >> To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org >> (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) >> > > > > -- > Ron Greenman > Instructor > Fire Protection Engineering > Bates Technical College > Tacoma, WA > > Member: > SFPE, ASCET, NFPA, AFSA, NFSA AFAA, WSAFM > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org > > To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org > > To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > -- Ron Greenman Instructor Fire Protection Engineering Bates Technical College Tacoma, WA Member: SFPE, ASCET, NFPA, AFSA, NFSA AFAA, WSAFM _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
