I have a real problem with this concept. This sounds like a system with 3/4"
end lines that was meant for manufacturing. If you intruduce a high hazard
process or storage that will not be controlled by this old schedule system,
it is till OK to not require that sprinkler system be calculated to the
requirements of the new occupancy?
If it is a calculated OH2 system does that need to be brought up to the
requirements of the hazard due to the change in occupancy?
Art Tiroly/AFSA
ATCO Fire Protection
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Ron Greenman
Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 2010 4:15 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: pipe schedule and storage
Again, I don't know why it would need to even comply with chapter 22 unless
there is something in the applicable building code with any legal amendments
or in a local ordinance that would drive an upgrade to current code. When I
worked for a building department in California we had if the occupancy
changed or if the new work exceeded 25% of the assessed value of the
building for drivers. Other than that only NEW work needed to meet the
current code and then was modified by language such as Forest cites about
new work to old pipe schedule systems needing to maintain the pipe schedule.
Whatever your current 13 is it is the standard for INSTALLATION of sprinkler
systems, not the revamping of existing systems. That is still governed by
version of 13 under which the system was installed unless some other piece
of legislation contravenes or the existing condition is a danger to public
health or safety.
On Wed, Aug 11, 2010 at 12:54 PM, Forest Wilson <[email protected]>
wrote:
Roland is correct.
NFPA does not state a 30% increase requirement.
NFPA 13-11.2.3.2.5 requires a 30% increase for hydraulically
calculated systems.
However, 13-11.2.2.3 clearly states that "Additions or modifications
to existing pipe schedule systems sized according to the pipe
schedules"..shall be permitted.
So, provided that the system piping complied with Chapter 22,this
system could be converted from wet to dry using the pipe schedule
system. It could be considered a modification not requiring hydraulic
calcs with the increase.
Forest Wilson
Cherokee Fire
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of John
O'Connor
Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 2010 12:34 PM
To: [email protected]; [email protected]
Subject: RE: pipe schedule and storage
And if the system is converted to dry can the existing pipe schedule
afford the 30% area increase while flowing water thru two pieces of 1"
at the end of all lines. I doubt it.
John O'Connor
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Brad
Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 2010 11:26 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: pipe schedule and storage
And hopefully it was installed long enough ago that sloping the pipe
to drain was required on wet systems too
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 2010 11:21 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: pipe schedule and storage
Typically if you're not touching the old system it can stay in place
as-is.
BUT if they want to modify it and try to change from wet to dry (good
luck with that) then it's game over and it has to meet current codes.
The whole idea of grandfathering in non-compliant systems is a misnomer.
Plus the big thing, how can you prove the system will function when
changing from wet to dry without calculating it?
Besides, when did the owner become a code and fire protection expert?
You just gotta love it.
Craig L. Prahl, CET
Fire Protection Specialist
Mechanical Department
CH2MHILL
Lockwood Greene
1500 International Drive
Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491
Direct - 864.599.4102
Fax - 864.599.8439
[email protected]
http://www.ch2m.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Todd
Williams
Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 2010 12:14 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: pipe schedule and storage
I think I have this one, but could use a little more ammo. I walked
through an old mill building this morning with an old OH pipe schedule
system. (They want to convert from wet to dry). In the building, they
have some 8 ft storage of a Group A plastics in cardboard cartons and
well as 2 piles of idle pallets to 8 ft. The owner is claiming that
the pipe schedule is grandfathered and the system does not need to
meet the hydraulic criteria. I disagree and am basing most of my
argument on the water supply requirements in
11.2.2 (NFPA 13, 2002 edition). Any other thoughts?
Todd G. Williams, PE
Fire Protection Design/Consulting
Stonington, CT
860.535.2080
www.fpdc.com
_______________________________________________
Sprinklerforum mailing list
[email protected]
http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum
For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected]
To Unsubscribe, send an email
to:[email protected]
(Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
_______________________________________________
Sprinklerforum mailing list
[email protected]
http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum
For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected]
To Unsubscribe, send an email
to:[email protected]
(Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
_______________________________________________
Sprinklerforum mailing list
[email protected]
http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum
For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected]
To Unsubscribe, send an email
to:[email protected]
(Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 9.0.851 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3064 - Release Date:
08/11/10 01:34:00
_______________________________________________
Sprinklerforum mailing list
[email protected]
http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum
For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected]
To Unsubscribe, send an email
to:[email protected]
(Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
_______________________________________________
Sprinklerforum mailing list
[email protected]
http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum
For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected]
To Unsubscribe, send an email
to:[email protected]
(Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
--
Ron Greenman
Instructor
Fire Protection Engineering
Bates Technical College
1101 So. Yakima Ave.
Tacoma, WA
253.680.7346
Member:
AFSA, SFPE, ASCET, NFPA, NFSA, AFAA, ASEE, NIBS, WSAFM, WFC
They are happy men whose natures sort with their vocations. -Francis Bacon,
essayist, philosopher, and statesman (1561-1626)
_______________________________________________
Sprinklerforum mailing list
[email protected]
http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum
For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected]
To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected]
(Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
_______________________________________________
Sprinklerforum mailing list
[email protected]
http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum
For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected]
To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected]
(Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
