Isn't it the building code that requires sprinklers? If nothing in 409 is applicable to the type of hangar then it would be EH-I IAW #13, wouldn't it?
Ron Fletcher Aero Automatic Phoenix, AZ -----Original Message----- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Andy Sent: Friday, November 12, 2010 6:24 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Group III Aircraft Hanger If 409 does not require sprinklers, look at the rest of the building. Most have office or shop areas. With a mixed use building and sprinklers not required for the hanger portion you probably still have misc. storage in that area. The other areas would drive the design. Why would you need to jump to a higher level of protection in 409 if it does not apply. I would recommend that they bring a larger supply in if use of the building changes. Andy -----Original Message----- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Bob Knight Sent: Thursday, November 11, 2010 7:50 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Group III Aircraft Hanger After reading through 409, I agree with you Ed. It really seems that this particular instance is left up to the local AHJ. Since this hanger is not required to be sprinklered per local code, I feel that we fall back on to NFPA 13. We have a call into the State FM for his direction. We'll see what he says. BK -----Original Message----- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Ed Vining Sent: Thursday, November 11, 2010 5:23 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: Group III Aircraft Hanger Help me with this. I do not see any requirement in Chapter 8 of 409 which would require sprinklering of a Group III hangar. Chapter 12 does not apply to Group III hangars. If sprinklers are required for this installation, where is it written. Ed Vining On Thu, Nov 11, 2010 at 3:21 PM, Daniel Wilder <daniel.wil...@wsfp.us>wrote: > It's been a while since my last hangar so here I go... > 409-11' Ed > 13-10' Ed. > 11-10' Ed. > > The term "fixed fire protection system" leads me to believe a > definition is in order...searching through 13, many of the references > to fixed has the following "...sprinklers and other fixed water-based > (13-8.16.1.1.2.1)" > "...water spray fixed system...(13-21.9.1.1(2))" > "A fixed water deluge...(13-21.17.1.1)" > "...of any sprinkler or fixed water spray system...(13-21.27.1.1)" > > 11 (10' ed)-1.2.1...or maintaining fixed, semifixed, or portable... > 11 3.3.17.2-Fixed System. A complete installation in which foam is > piped from a central foam station, discharging through fixed delivery outlets... > 11 4.8 System Types - (1) Fixed > > No definition in 13 to speak of. > > 409 > 8.9.1.1=Fixed System > > Since the other chapters specifically allow other NFPA's I am not sure > why this one doesn't come out and say it other than reading through > the A8.1.1 it sounds like the construction of these hangers lends more > weight to the prudence of the Local AHJ and how they want to approach these. > > My conclusion is since 13 almost always separates these two > definitions and many of the 409 references send you directly to a > specific standard and there is a fairly clear definition in 11, you > cannot use 13 in this instance. Chapter 12 (unfueled aircraft) is new > to 409 and allows a > .17/5000 w/ 500 GPM hose with some other criteria but you stated the > aircraft would have fuel. > > I would also like to see another viewpoint on this to make sure I'm in > the right direction... > > Dan > > -----Original Message----- > From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org > [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Bob > Knight > Sent: Thursday, November 11, 2010 2:58 PM > To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org > Subject: RE: Group III Aircraft Hanger > > Now that I've had time to digest your comments Daniel, I'm still at > somewhat of a loss. According to the annex for 8.9.1.1 which states > to the effect, "not all building codes require fire protection systems > in Group III aircraft hangers". When we approached the local AHJ with > the question, what do you require?, he simply answered "with whatever > NFPA says". So now, if I'm understanding this correctly, which I'm > not sure that I am, NFPA 409 provides the statement "fixed fire > protection systems shall be installed where required by and in > accordance with locally adopted building codes". > Therefore, I'm making the leap that I refer back to NFPA 13 which is > where I would normally go for unfueled aircraft and use a .3/2500. > Since this is a fueled aircraft I'm going to say that I should use a > .4/2500. This isn't based on anything other than my gut. If anyone > has another plan or idea, please sound off. > > BK > > -----Original Message----- > From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org > [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Daniel > Wilder > Sent: Thursday, November 11, 2010 11:37 AM > To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org > Subject: RE: Group III Aircraft Hanger > > 2006 IBC 412.2.6 Fire Suppression-Aircraft hangers shall be provided > with fire suppression by NFPA 409. Exception group II hangars as > defined in NFPA 409. > > 8.9.1.1 (11' Ed.) dictates fire protection based on the criteria in > Chapter > 4 with additional requirements as noted for 8.9.1.2 as it reads "In > addition to the requirements of 8.9.1.1, where hazardous > operations...." > > So I guess in your case the protection criteria in Chapter 7 (Group II > Hangers) & Section 5.4.2 would not need to be applied but the > protection criteria for a Group III Hangar would still be required. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org > [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Bob > Knight > Sent: Thursday, November 11, 2010 8:30 AM > To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org > Subject: Group III Aircraft Hanger > > Good morning forum, > We are looking at a Group III hanger. NFPA 409 8.9.1 provides > guidance for fire protection when hazardous conditions such as fuel > transfer, welding, cutting, soldering, etc... are present, but it > provides no guidance as what to do when they are not. In this case > none of the conditions 8.9.1 lays out will be present, but the > aircraft will have fuel in the fuel tank (no transfer of any kind). > Do we default to NFPA 13 or some other fire sprinkler design criteria > in 409? > > Thanks, > > Bob Knight > Fire Sprinkler Manager > Allied General Fire & Security, Inc. > 6033 W Franklin > Boise, ID 83709 > (208) 367-9100 Phone > (208) 367-9280 Fax > (208) 994-1439 Cell > > > > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org > > To Unsubscribe, send an email > to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org<to%3ASprinklerforum-reques > t...@firesprinkler.org> (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org > > To Unsubscribe, send an email > to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org<to%3ASprinklerforum-reques > t...@firesprinkler.org> (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org > > To Unsubscribe, send an email > to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org<to%3ASprinklerforum-reques > t...@firesprinkler.org> (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org > > To Unsubscribe, send an email > to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org<to%3ASprinklerforum-reques > t...@firesprinkler.org> (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > -- Ed Vining 4819 John Muir Rd Martinez CA 94553 925-228-8792 Cell 787-0465 _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
