Now that it's Monday and brainfreeze is over but madness has begun
I'd like to eat crow and acknowledge I was wrong. The answer lies
simply within the definition of a bathroom per 13R:
3.3.1* Bathroom. Within a dwelling unit, any room or compartment
containing a lavatory dedicated to personal hygiene, or a water
closet, or bathing capability such as a shower or tub, or any
combination of facilities thereof.
Keywords: "within a dwelling unit." In my case where we had literal
"bathrooms" in an office space they're still located outside the
dwelling unit - so have to be sprinkled.
--- On Sat, 2/12/11, Ralphy Henderson <[email protected]>
wrote:
From: Ralphy Henderson <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Friday Brainfreeze - 13R Outside the dwelling Units
Bathrooms
To: [email protected]
Date: Saturday, February 12, 2011, 3:36 AM
The whole building is to be designed per 13R. The lower level has an
office and storage area that is incidental to the use of the primary
occupancy which is R-4. NFPA 13R states that when 13R is to be used
it is used throughout the entire building area.Nowhere in 13R does
it refer you to NFPA 13 for the *location* of sprinklers - all that
is covered under 13R. Which is why you don't provide sprinkler
coverage in attics, crawlspaces, etc even when they're outside the
dwelling unit on a 13R system (unless they contain fuel fired
equipment etc).
In this case, since the lower area is outside the dwelling unit, 13R
temporarily re-directs you to NFPA 13's water density requirements,
spacing requirements etc.. for layout and calcs but specifically
states in the annex material that it's not directing you to the
other NFPA 13 requirements such as sprinkling concealed combustible
spaces, hose allowances etc..
Seeing how these are truly "bathrooms" in a building that is getting
a 13R system - it looks to me like they could be omitted.
--- On Fri, 2/11/11, Ron Greenman <[email protected]> wrote:
From: Ron Greenman <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Friday Brainfreeze - 13R Outside the dwelling Units
Bathrooms
To: [email protected]
Date: Friday, February 11, 2011, 11:30 PM
If that portion of the building is no longer allowed to be designed to
13R then that portion of the building is not outside the dwelling area
per 13R, it is in an area of totally separate design criteria. If then
the bathroom in question is though still under 13R design criteria
then it is within the dwelling area unlike closets on decks that open
to the outside only. In your scenario the attic is outside the
dwelling area but still a part of 13R criteria and is exempt from
sprinklers, but what about the crawlspace? Outside the dwelling area?
13R or 13? you have to determine which language you're speaking before
you can go to the proper dictionary.
On Fri, Feb 11, 2011 at 3:18 PM, Ralphy Henderson
<[email protected]> wrote:
Very simple actually... a house converted into a rehab center; R-4
occupancy with a lower level that consists of an office with file
room.The lower level still has the old 'bathrooms' (two of 'em) -
literal bathrooms; toilet and tub.
--- On Fri, 2/11/11, Ron Greenman <[email protected]> wrote:
From: Ron Greenman <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Friday Brainfreeze - 13R Outside the dwelling Units
Bathrooms
To: [email protected]
Date: Friday, February 11, 2011, 10:17 PM
How can a bathroom be outside the dwelling unit? That's like saying
living rooms outside the dwelling area.
On Fri, Feb 11, 2011 at 2:08 PM, Ralphy Henderson
<[email protected]> wrote:
Sorry, not so...please provide documentation showing where that's
stated. Whenever you use 13R you use the standard throughout the
building except where specifically indicated by 13R. The only time
13R refers you back to NFPA 13 for areas outside the dwelling unit
is primarily for discharge densities, spacing, etc and NOT
sprinkler locations
You'll notice in the following appendix material for 6.8.2 that
sprinkler LOCATION is not mentioned - deliberately.
A.6.8.2 It is only the intent of NFPA 13R to reference the
sprinkler discharge (flow and pressure), number of design
sprinklers, and position of sprinklers (distance from walls,
ceilings, and other sprinklers) requirements of NFPA 13, Standard
for the Installation of Sprinkler Systems. Other rules from NFPA
13 such as sprinklering of combustible concealed spaces, hose
stream demand, and water supply duration are not intended to be
referenced by 6.8.2.
--- On Fri, 2/11/11, G. Tim Stone <[email protected]> wrote:
From: G. Tim Stone <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Friday Brainfreeze - 13R Outside the dwelling Units
Bathrooms
To: "[email protected]" <[email protected]
>
Date: Friday, February 11, 2011, 9:14 PM
If you are outside the dwelling unit, it reverts back to NFPA 13.
Chapter 8.
Sent from my iPhone
G Tim Stone
On Feb 11, 2011, at 3:01 PM, Ralphy Henderson <[email protected]
> wrote:
Yeah but where does it state that? NFPA #13R doesn't require
sprinklers in bathrooms under 55 sq. ft. Ch 6.9 (2007 ed) when
talking about bathrooms, doesn't say "within dwelling units" as
it does with 6.9.3 for the sprinkling of closets, pantries etc.
The distinction, as far as I can tell, of"within" and "outside"
the dwelling units only applies to design criteria and not
location - otherwise concealed combustible spaces outside the
dwelling unit would have to sprinkled which is obviously not the
case.
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--
Ron Greenman
Instructor
Fire Protection Engineering Technology
Bates Technical College
1101 So. Yakima Ave.
Tacoma, WA 98405
[email protected]
http://www.bates.ctc.edu/fireprotection/
253.680.7346
253.576.9700 (cell)
Member:
ASEE, SFPE, ASCET, NFPA, AFSA, NFSA, AFAA, NIBS, WSAFM, WFC
They are happy men whose natures sort with their vocations. -Francis
Bacon, essayist, philosopher, and statesman (1561-1626)
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For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected]
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--
Ron Greenman
Instructor
Fire Protection Engineering Technology
Bates Technical College
1101 So. Yakima Ave.
Tacoma, WA 98405
[email protected]
http://www.bates.ctc.edu/fireprotection/
253.680.7346
253.576.9700 (cell)
Member:
ASEE, SFPE, ASCET, NFPA, AFSA, NFSA, AFAA, NIBS, WSAFM, WFC
They are happy men whose natures sort with their vocations. -Francis
Bacon, essayist, philosopher, and statesman (1561-1626)
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