I suggest everyone consider the fact that these TIA's are about a life safety issue. You are aware of the issue and if something goes wrong with old antifreeze you will be dead meat in a court room. Arguments about local adoption will not work.
Top Myers RelMark Group 961 Pottstown Pike Chester Springs, PA 19425 610-321-2415 X-219 Cell 610-952-0965 [email protected] -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Jim Davidson Sent: Monday, March 28, 2011 7:46 PM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: Antifreeze TIA Applicability? That question needs to be addressed by your legal consultant and insurance underwriter's risk management staff. Regards JIm Jim Davidson Davidson Associates Fire Protection * Medical Gas * Code Consulting 302-994-9500 Fax:302-234-1781 -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of George Church Sent: Monday, March 28, 2011 6:16 PM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: Antifreeze TIA Applicability? WHOA!!! I'm not a registered design PROFESSIONAL and I'm not an engineer. We install to the PA Uniform construction code and per the direction of the EOR. Ok, get up off the floor. But from a legal standpoint, what makes us so "professional" and required to provide sound engineering JUDGEMENT vrs a Sparky, a tinknocker or plumber? Light switch is 44" off the floor, just like the EOR's print. If that ain't right, go see the guy who gave me the APPROVED dwg I'm INSTALLING TO. Jeez, there are some on the Forum with this monkey on their back, but we don't employ any engineers or professionals. (I'm on my own time when I play one on TV- heck, I'm not even a Level IV). JD, hope you didn't run off the road. George Church Rowe Sprinkler Systems, Inc. PO Box 407, Middleburg, PA 17842 877-324-ROWE 570-837-6335 fax [email protected] -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Tony Silva Sent: Saturday, March 26, 2011 2:14 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: Antifreeze TIA Applicability? There is also such a thing called "good engineering practice". Regardless of legal requirements, one is also required to use sound engineering judgement based on current knowledge. A vulture, I mean a lawyer would run hoops around you if comes to courts. Tony ----- Original Message ----- From: Ron Greenman <[email protected]> Date: Saturday, March 26, 2011 11:29 am Subject: Re: Antifreeze TIA Applicability? To: [email protected] > But if a jurisdiction has a adopted an NFPA standard as part of their > code, say Washington adopts 2009 IBC which references NFPA > 13/2007 and > then Bellevue amends that to the 13/2010 edition (this is the case and > legal in this state), and then NFPA issues a TIA or an errata doesn't > that become part of the adopted code, at least in Bellevue? I'm > thinking that if there's a typo requiring say a seismic brace with 24 > feet of a change in direction and later an errata is published > correcting the typo it would automatically become valid legally > regardless if everybody but that one moron knew what the intent > originally was. If you publish an official copy of the Ten Commandants > that says "Thou shalt covet they neighbor's wife," then that is the > law where that law is in force until it's corrected. I would think a > TIA would be the same. And of course it ultimately rests on which > party has the cleverer snake, er, lawyer. Thoughts? > > On Sat, Mar 26, 2011 at 6:04 AM, Chris Cahill > <[email protected]> wrote: > > Really it doesn't matter what NFPA intends. You are correct > legally it > > doesn't apply to older codes. Probably doesn't legally apply > to the 2010 > > unless specifically adopted by the jurisdiction. > Jurisdictions usually have > > processes to adopt law that don't defer to NFPA. NFPA doesn't > make law. A > > fire marshal can't write an order to follow the TIA. That's > the legal > > matter. On the civil side, like a loss of any kind, you the > fire marshal > > will not be issuing a ticket but the contractor will be served > civil papers > > by the insurance company that paid on the loss. There it is > up to who has > > the better lawyer and/or which side fights the longest to find > out if it > > applies in that case. Different cases, different judges, different > > insurance companies will have different outcomes. > > > > Chris > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: [email protected] > > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of > Dave Phelan > > Sent: Saturday, March 26, 2011 7:32 AM > > To: [email protected] > > Subject: Antifreeze TIA Applicability? > > > > As I read the TIA's and supporting documents on the antifreeze > issue I see > > they all reference the 2010 editions of the NFPA Sprinkler > standards.> > > What impact does these NFPA TIA's have on any prior editions? > If any - > > > > I'm asking because this state is currently using the 2007 > editions under the > > 2009 IBC . So when a TIA is issued on the current NFPA edition > does NFPA > > intend for it to have any effect on the prior editions which > may very well > > be the prevailing codes in a state / jurisdiction? My gut > tells me it > > doesn't apply to other editions unless they specifically make that > > stipulation but that wouldn't necessarily change the science > of the problem. > > > > Thoughts? > > > > > > > > Dave P. in NJ > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > [email protected] > > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > > > For Technical Assistance, send an email to: > [email protected]> > > To Unsubscribe, send an email to:Sprinklerforum- > [email protected]> (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject > field) > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > [email protected] > > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > > > For Technical Assistance, send an email to: > [email protected]> > > To Unsubscribe, send an email to:Sprinklerforum- > [email protected]> (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject > field) > > > > > > -- > Ron Greenman > Instructor > Fire Protection Engineering Technology Bates Technical College > 1101 So. Yakima Ave. > Tacoma, WA 98405 > > [email protected] > > http://www.bates.ctc.edu/fireprotection/ > > 253.680.7346 > 253.576.9700 (cell) > > Member: > ASEE, SFPE, ASCET, NFPA, AFSA, NFSA, AFAA, NIBS, WSAFM, WFC > > They are happy men whose natures sort with their vocations. -Francis > Bacon, essayist, philosopher, and statesman (1561-1626) > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] > > To Unsubscribe, send an email to:Sprinklerforum- > [email protected](Put the word unsubscribe in the subject > field) > _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
