Craig, We have done a couple industrial sites with this combination. No check valve no floor control valve. I guess I always read 14 to be talking about wet systems specifically. Steve and the others bring up a good point that it doesn't differentiate. Truth be known , anyone who works on industrial sites much also understands that time after time engineering and ingenuity have to come into play because the standard doesn't address so many of the situations that come up.
Rod -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of [email protected] Sent: Friday, April 22, 2011 7:49 AM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: Combination standpipe riser & hose flows Yes the riser is in a heated enclosure. There is no advantage in running separate risers for standpipe and sprinklers. For industrial structures like this the approach is common. Also space allocation is premium in these types of facilities. While it might be easier from a design standpoint, from an installation standpoint, not easy by a long shot. Craig L. Prahl, CET Fire Protection CH2MHILL Lockwood Greene 1500 International Drive Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - 864.599.8439 CH2MHILL Extension 74102 [email protected] -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Bill Brooks Sent: Friday, April 22, 2011 9:23 AM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: Combination standpipe riser & hose flows Craig, are you trying to save the owner's money by attempting the combined dry sprinkler and standpipe system, or has the owner dictated this approach? I assume you are running your sprinkler system from a heated valve enclosure. Seems it would be easier to have separate systems starting from that point. Bill Brooks William N. Brooks, P.E. Brooks Fire Protection Engineering Inc. 372 Wilett Drive Severna Park, MD 21146-1904 410-544-3620 410-544-3032 FAX 412-400-6528 Cell -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of [email protected] Sent: Friday, April 22, 2011 8:48 AM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: Combination standpipe riser & hose flows Check valve = worthless in a dry system as I have described. Same goes for the floor control valve. If you are going to service one floor and close that valve to isolate the section, you can't just reopen it once you're done working or the air pressure loss in that part of the system will set off the dry valve. So unless you're going to crack the valve open really really slow so the compressor can keep up with the pressure changes and you don't mind spending the day playing with that, the floor control assemblies have no purpose in the dry systems. This may be exactly why they are specifically mentioned for wet systems. NFPA is really silent when it comes to special conditions in industrial installations such as this. These are special hazard operations that often fall under the criteria of the owner's risk management or their underwriter. Conventional thought processes often don't apply and won't work. Craig L. Prahl, CET Fire Protection CH2MHILL Lockwood Greene 1500 International Drive Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - 864.599.8439 CH2MHILL Extension 74102 [email protected] -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Morey, Mike Sent: Friday, April 22, 2011 7:14 AM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: Combination standpipe riser & hose flows NFPA 14 6.3.5 doesn't make any exception for dry combined systems, at least that I can see, the annex material has diagrams that are clearly for wet pipe systems, but the wording really doesn't leave any wiggle to get out of doing it on non wet systems. It applies any time a sprinkler system connection is made to a standpipe, so regardless of whether or not the building is considered multi story if you take off at each level from the standpipe to a sprinkler system you are by code required to provide a shutoff and check. The check valve seems a bit silly in this case, but I can understand why they'd want a control valve (similar to the requirements for each vertical standpipe to have its own valve to allow maintenance without taking the entire system out of service). Mike Morey, SET, CFPS Sprinkler Designer BMW Constructors, Inc. O: 317.651.0596 | C: 317.439.2695 www.bmwc.com ________________________________ From: [email protected] on behalf of [email protected] Sent: Thu 4/21/2011 7:14 PM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: Combination standpipe riser & hose flows But is that for wet systems? For a dry system such as this the shut off valves and check valves would serve no purpose. The system is either totally flooded due to head(s) fusing or it's dry. For the application I have, there is no real building code correlation to an occupied mult-story buildings. These structures are basically big machines. Miles of pipe, vessels, pumps, and other equipment all jam packed into half the space it ought to occupy. There are no walls, the upper level has equipment on it exposed to the sky. The challenge of laying out a sprinkler system is often beyond imagination. Eveyone is clamoring for every cubic inch of space to put their stuff. The red pipe, nobody thinks about that. Just another day in paradise. :) Craig Prahl CH2MHILL/SPB 864-599-4102 _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
