Pin holes? Not to bust any bubbles, but for steel pipe after 30 or so years,
there is a likely and potential problem here. What holds air today will not
hold the same next month in what your finding. You could "A" Keep looking at
more pinholes every month and continue to find them and continue to bandage the
pipe and waist your client's cash that could be applied to a correct solution
or "B" face reality and do the right thing, replace the pipe or system if
needed. Once the pin holes show up, there is not much you can do to reverse it.
If you continue to bandage the pipe and the system is called for in an event
that requires its use and it doesn't work because it may be obstructed, than
thanks for helping increase our trades insurance because of your failure of
thorough due diligent.
Typically I would start by inspecting the internals of the system if pipes are
rotting. Search for electrolysis and find the cause of it and correct so it
doesn't happen again for the next 30 years. Also run a water sample and see of
the water has a long term caustic effect on the used grade of steel.
The bottom line is an internal inspection of the pipe needs to be performed. I
would start at the valve and see what the internals of the valve looks like. If
it has a lot of thick looking rusty build up that you are able to chip off
inside the valve, chances are you may be dealing with M.I.C... I would pull the
last piece of pipe apart on the end of a branch line in the remote area to see
if in fact it is M.I.C... Your client needs to be well prepared in the event
that you may need to replace the pipe, piping or the entire system immediately
if your findings are detrimental to MIC or corrosion or you if you are not able
to seal the joints that are taken apart upon you investigation. Again, before
you perform any task needed to research and inform the client as to what the
issues you may encounter before you start and have your client prepared,
understanding that it may be costly. Have them sign a disclaimer if you feel
necessary.
Repair clamps are not a solution. Advise the client to meet and inform with
their insurance as there insurance company wouldn't want a water damage claim.
There insurance may be able to help fund the replacement of the pipe. After
all, that is what is insurance for.
It is not easy to tell or have a client understand the reasoning as to why
this is happening; we are not pipe gods here. So cover your liability if a
client doesn't want to reason with the facts or take any action. Time is
nobody's fault. Pipe and steel will deteriorate just like concrete and rock
over time. Have the client sign off on the problem so they can't come back on
you on a failure to notify them if you encounter the problem of not wanting to
further correct the problem.
Please contact me if you have any questions or concerns.
Steve Stirm
President, AFSS
300 So. Catlin St. Suite #2
Missoula, MT 59801
PH: 406-542-9119
FAX: 406-543-9191
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of George Church
Sent: Tuesday, December 13, 2011 8:15 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: Changing Code Standards in an Existing Bldg.
And compressor piping, but you've already done that, right?
Shutting off the control valve from the air supply to limit the leakage at trim?
George L. Church, Jr., CET
Rowe Sprinkler Systems, Inc.
PO Box 407, Middleburg, PA 17842
877-324-ROWE 570-837-6335 fax
[email protected]
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Jim Davidson
Sent: Tuesday, December 13, 2011 9:15 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: Changing Code Standards in an Existing Bldg.
Tom,
I would also check the valves on the test connections and drum drips for
leakage around the valve seat.
Have a fire safe day.
Jim Davidson
Davidson Associates
Fire Protection * Medical Gas * Code Consulting
302-994-9500 Fax:302-234-1781
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Tom Duross
Sent: Monday, December 12, 2011 6:16 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Changing Code Standards in an Existing Bldg.
This is kind of a rant/long winded digression/request for opinion kinda thingy..
I have a group residence built in the late seventies with a dry system.
I-2, ranch style building with attic.
Steel pipe, attic and living space coverage, 13 design (closets, bathrooms,
concealed spaces, everything covered).
I've mentioned it to this forum before. The dry system has become a real
source of frustration this past month.
When we did our annual testing this summer all went well. This is our 3rd year
here so we did a full flood trip.
Been fine as far as I know since August. This past Saturday it tripped.
When I got there, reset it, noticed air pressure dropping and air compressor
cycling every 30 minutes.
I climbed into the attic (more like lumbered) and found several locations of
pinhole leaks in the underside of mains.
This is old 2 1/2"-3"-4" threaded pipe sitting on the bottoms of the trusses.
Great.
With it being a Saturday afternoon, the supply house is closed.
I managed to find a couple of plumbing supply houses ready to close and bought
three saddle type repair clamps.
Went back and installed them and once back up, the cycling dropped to about
every 90-100 minutes for about a 20 minute run.
I tightened up the differential on the pressure switch so it ran for only
3-4 minutes but it started every 45 minutes or so.
I felt that better since it was a riser mount and got hot in that 20 minute
cycle.
The clients were all still out at a day program and needed to return, feeling
for them as I do I told the manager to bring them home.
I called the Deputy, told him I did a temporary patch and fix for the weekend,
pretty sure it would be OK, and would return Monday.
I returned Monday morning, still cycling every 45 minutes or so, squeezed back
up (with some lights this time!) and found one more.
Right under the pipe, as you slide your hand along the pipe, just a little hiss
of air. I had brought gas leak detector with me in a spray bottle.
I sent baby brother out for another repair saddle (I just wanted to get it
tight first) while I balanced across 24" OC roof joists with a trouble light in
one hand and a flashlight in my mouth. I sprayed every fitting I could see,
even the high uprights, no bubbles. We put the 2" saddle on, compressor
started and stopped, we sat there in the attic for over an hour, quiet as
church mice. About ready to get up and pat each other on the back, the air
compressor started again. UUGH! We climbed back down, watched the gauge again,
sprayed half a bottle of leak detector all over the dry pipe valve, air supply,
inspectors test, went in and sprayed the faces of the dry pendents. That's all
that was left. Nothing found.
I think I'm just almost causing small leaks to appear after I stop the larger
ones. Almost chasing my own tail (if I had one).
Remember Curly standing in the bathtub putting one section of pipe into another
and the water won't stop? Am I a victim of circumstance?
Well, it's still this way as I write this and thinking of options for the
Owner, I wanted to (get to the point Tom) run something by the forum.
I'm past the point of no return weather-wise, I don't want to flood it. It was
28 degrees last night.
What if I pumped glycol (I know, I know) to not only maybe find a drip but
maybe to stabilize it for the winter? Has anyone done this?
The other question, and the reason behind the title, could I just abandon the
dry system?
Could I just change the system from a '78 NFPA 13 dry system to a '07 13R in an
existing building that's already sprinklered?
The attic isn't used for living purposes, storage, has no mechanical equipment
or anything serviceable. Just an 18x18 access panel.
I think if it wasn't sprinklered and I was asked to install a system, that's
what I'd do. A soffitted wet system with sidewalls.
Scratching my head and removing splinters.
TD
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