As with most things in the press, the first accounts were not very
complete. This article gives a slightly more complete picture.
http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-firefighter-killed-20120216,0,512896.story
The fireplaces were added after the job was completed. Everyone
screaming (at least on the blogs) about the contractor and the inspector
didn't have the whole story. We may not have it yet, but I would wager
a buck or two that when the dust settles, the decision to add those
fireplaces, of a type never intended for interior use, is going to be at
the root of this tragedy.
No matter, it's still very sad.
PARSLEY CONSULTING
Ken Wagoner, SET
760.745.6181 voice
760.745.0537 fax
[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>e-mail
www.ParsleyConsulting.com <http://www.ParsleyConsulting.com>website
On 2/16/2012 10:55 AM, Cahill, Christopher wrote:
Just playing Devil's advocate.
But for a few locations no sprinkler system is required. Therefore any would
be a tremendous improvement.
A vast majority of the fires in homes (well anywhere) don't start in concealed
spaces. Therefore focusing on the probability seems reasonable when the goal
is only life safety.
Even lowly 13D systems still put out a lot of fires even though not designed
for that. Therefore focusing on the probability seems reasonable.
Story suggests it's a paid FD which usually are closer in response time than
volunteer departments. Therefore one would expect even if the 13D didn't put
out the fire the FD would be close and have a better chance of suppressing.
And I'm rather sure the fire doesn't know it's in a 2,000 sq.ft. home or 4
story apartment or 200,000 sq.ft. home. Any incipient fire and even
well-developed stage has nothing to do with the size of the building. Sure
the time it takes to burn to the ground would be different but that's obviously
something sprinkler designs don't care about.
I have personally had a house fall on me and my FF crew from a fire in the attic. It
wasn't sprinklered. I have also had large sections of ceiling come down on me from water
and no apparent fire in the area. Fortunately, in both cases the worst injury was a
sprained ankle, not me. This firefighter was just really, really, really unlucky that
day, but I can see how it could happen. I believe questioning the sprinklers in this
case might be a bit over reaching. The exact same thing would have happened had this
been a plumbing line. Questioning the cause of the fire and installation of the fire
place(or whatever it is) seems more justified. Tolerance for people
"accidently" having a fire is also a contributing factor. Build as a fire
hazard or leave the oil on the stove why you sleep one off are not prosecuted as crimes
unless you kill someone. Maybe if there were more penalties for 'accidents' this would
have been avoided in the first place.
I'll admit I've gone back and forth on the issue of setting a size limit on
NFPA 13D. In the big picture I can see both sides of the argument. Starting
to slightly lean towards leaving the limits out. The reality vs. an
unsprinklered house of any size and a 13D I'd take 13D every time. We lose way
more in these big houses if we lose sprinklers altogether vs. 13 systems for
the rare attic problem. I'd venture a guess we'd get more freeze ups and
losses that way than fires in the attics. You know what happens when a rich
owner gets their stuff wet from a freeze up. Many City Councils would cave on
the sprinkler requirement altogether if they could to appease the public.
Remember gazillion dollar houses pay bazillion in taxes every year. Once it's
in the attic in an unsprinkered situation the house and contents are a total
loss in nearly all cases. FD's take their shinny expensive toys and put on a
great show for those who paid for said toys. Burning it down slow fo
r some reason gives the public a sense of confidence.
I think the other question is who designed the life and property protection
scope. Not who designed the sprinklers. There is no suggestion the design
played any part.
Chris Cahill, PE*
Senior Fire Protection Engineer, Aviation& Facilities Group
Burns& McDonnell
8201 Norman Center Drive
Bloomington, MN 55437
Phone: 952.656.3652
Fax: 952.229.2923
[email protected]
www.burnsmcd.com
Proud to be one of FORTUNE's 100 Best Companies to Work For
*Registered in: MN
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of
[email protected]
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2012 12:10 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: Article: Architect pleads not guilty in firefighter's death
So the next question that comes to mind is who designed the "sprinkler" system,
a contractor or the architect?
Agreed, good old 13D may have been permitted by code, maybe, but it may not
have been the most appropriate for the structure.
Craig L. Prahl, CET
Fire Protection
CH2MHILL
Lockwood Greene
1500 International Drive
Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491
Direct - 864.599.4102
Fax - 864.599.8439
CH2MHILL Extension 74102
[email protected]
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Richard Mote
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2012 12:10 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: Article: Architect pleads not guilty in firefighter's death
More info, article mentions an 18' indoor fire pit. This is another case where
13D may not have been appropriate for a 6000 sq. ft. three story house.
http://www.laobserved.com/archive/2012/02/architect_charged_in_deat.php
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