Well, there is a lot more to it than you've brought up. First, I believe what you bought is a UL Listed Residential controller and a POS pump. POS stands for Piece of Sushi and I'm kidding on the last word. You won't see them advertised in SQ (Sprinkler Quarterly) because it gives people in Patterson NY heartburn and they won't let them mislead people.
Didn't the State of NY learn anything about under-spec'ing sprinklers when they lost all those people in the 13D group home? Despite how it is advertised, it does meet the requirements of NFPA 13R 2007, so if that's your performance spec, and you bid a #20 compliant pump, any other bidder complying with 13R only with a POS pump would have been significantly less. For the record, I'll readily admit we install a bunch of these POS pumps, although from a different manufacturer "Back East" with very few troubles (wasn't them with the impeller problem, that was someone in St Louis). Why don't we use #20 pumps? Well, how many of you add a tank and pump to your city supplies on 13 systems? Redundant supplies are better, right? We do it because it is what the minimum consensus standard requires and it isn't our job to shove our beliefs down our customers' wallets- that's the province of the plumbing engineer LOL! Seriously, there are folks we'll mention it to, but the vast majority didn't want to spend $10 on sprinklers, let alone $10k, $30k, whatever. Some could elect to bid NFPA 22 compliant tanks for 13R systems which aren't required. Heck, we could install clean agent backup to sprinklers in I occupancies....that's someone's mother in that room!!! George L. Church, Jr., CET Rowe Sprinkler Systems, Inc. PO Box 407, Middleburg, PA 17842 877-324-ROWE 570-837-6335 fax [email protected] -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Justin Petcosky Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2012 2:11 PM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: Automatic Fire Sprinkler Systems Fire Pumps / Aqua tanks Thanks for your input! It is my belief this system is a falsely advertised and doesn't provide what was promised (That being a 13-R Acceptable Pump). Unfortunately this pump was required by the State of New York for an installation in a 13-R Residence. I from the beginning of the project stressed my concern about the pump not being UL listed itself and not meeting NFPA 20 requirements. The State insisted it was okay due to the fact it was UL listed as an assembly. I wonder if UL knows how they are advertising this product? It is my belief that only the controller is the actual listed assembly. With some careful wording from the manufacture we now have a NFPA-13R, Listed Pump Assembly. Word of advice from myself if anybody runs across this stay AWAY!!! TOLCO fire pumps have actual UL Listed Pumps & Controllers that meet NFPA 20. That was my recommendation to the State. If anybody has any other input please let me know! Justin Petcosky Project Manager/Estimator Petcosky and Sons Plumbing, Heating, and Fire Protection 421 Commerce Rd. Vestal, NY 13850 www.petcosky-sons.com 607-797-0160 -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of George Church Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2012 13:57 To: [email protected] Subject: RE: Automatic Fire Sprinkler Systems Fire Pumps / Aqua tanks If you're getting only most of the rating of the pump when testing, then you need to contact the mfr/supplier where you obtained it pronto and if they can't figure out why, get you one that performs as specified. You might have an out if you greatly oversized the pump and you demands are met by the current performance. I was going to say the AHJ would have to bless the drop in cushion, but unless there is a local requirement, there is no minimum cushion in 13R, just meet the demand of the system. The right thing to do is to replace the unit with one performing as specified, the option I give is really for getting occupancy with the idea you're meeting code, but there's no reason for you to accept less than you bought on behalf of the owner, and there may be a problem that will further degrade (possibly quickly) performance so its best to find the cause or replace it- replacing it being most likely to occur, many of these 13R pumps are less than roundtrip plane fare to troubleshoot for the mfr. We had an impeller detach itself after a short installation time which was a scary thing to experience, thank heavens we found it in an annual not a fire, it would have been ugly and likely grounds for a TIA to retro-require compliance with 20 if there were enough deaths resulting. Course we need over 3,000 deaths to even not make enough impact in some circles (IRC adoption), but thankfully only one or two in NFPA (AF fireballs). There's an Attaboy to Shannon and Co buried in there. Tim, don't feel bad- you may work where locals require 20 or next edition does, and I labored under the misconception 20 needed to be met myself for a long time when, at least in 2007 edition, it clearly does not. Roland, are you sure it was TC intent to require #20 pump when poorly written? It seems odd to write WHEN a fire pump is... because that clearly (to me) means there are times when a fire pump isn't being provided. If it was TC intent and they wrote what they wrote in 07 edition, then they butchered the heck out of it and mislead us with really bad writing. Doubt you can blame it on the English majors in Quincy, either...the wordsmithers we rely on when we've spent three hours on a paragraph, or have an hour to get thru a chapter! George L. Church, Jr., CET Rowe Sprinkler Systems, Inc. PO Box 407, Middleburg, PA 17842 877-324-ROWE 570-837-6335 fax [email protected] -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Roland Huggins Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2012 1:31 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: Automatic Fire Sprinkler Systems Fire Pumps / Aqua tanks That is indeed the INTENT but if one looks at the literal text, it doesn't say that. It says in 9.3 "with a pump". It doesn't say fire pump. Then in 9.4 it says - where a FIRE pump is installed, it shall be in accordance with NFPA 20. IF one assumes the use of pump and fire pump is synonymous, you get to NFPA 20. This was cleaned up for the next edition such that it is explicit that the pump must a fire pump. Roland On Apr 26, 2012, at 6:20 AM, G. Tim Stone wrote: > Justin, > > If the system in question falls under NFPA 13R then the pump needs to > be installed in accordance with NFPA 20. > NFPA 20 calls for UL listed equipment. Have you contacted the pump > supplier for assistance? > > Regards, > G. Tim Stone -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/private/sprinklerforum/attachments/20120426/4a09097d/attachment.html> _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum
