Rod, Go back and read Tim's citation. 2007 is our PA adopted version. In it, no reason non-22 tanks store FP water to unlisted pump from Lowes to 13R system with no connection to domestic. Don't have to like it, can change it in a later edition, but until PA adopts an edition requiring NFPA 20 pumps, I can buy and install that talco pump and they provide me a completely compliant, in PA, solution.
Rare to find newest is adopted, especially with Builders wanting to postpone reality- and in PA doing a darn good job of it. But I sure don't see a requirement for 20 pumps only unless the domestic supply is involved. Maybe someone could cite 2007 and build a case, but I don't see it in my copy or Tim's. Sent from my iPhone On Aug 9, 2012, at 5:03 PM, "Rod DiBona" <r...@rapidfireinc.com> wrote: > Thank you Steve and Tim for your response. Frustrating to see a manufacturer > selling "all over the country" an unlisted 13R pump that "many AHJ's will > approve" and having to compete against contractors willing to use it. Looks > like it is time for us to pass on this knowledge to the approving AHJ. I > shared Ricks concerns but see the logic behind the instant diagnostics by the > residents on a combined supply pointed out by Steve. Good information once > again. > > Rod at Rapid > > -----Original Message----- > From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org > [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Steve Leyton > Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2012 2:29 PM > To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org > Subject: RE: 13R pump listing > > Correct, as I said in last email and as Tim points out with regard to > said pump having to be of a type that is "automatically operated". Yes, > the pump will have to be sized for both domestic and fire sprinkler > demands, whichever is greater, and the fire sprinkler demand will have > to be augmented per the domestic plumbing fixture load table in 13R. > As for jurisdiction or concerns over a domestic pump not providing > adequate service, look at it this way: the building management (and/or > residents) will respond immediately to an impairment in the pump if it > impacts their domestic water service. Whatever qualitative issues there > may be with an unlisted pump (and I'm not saying there are any, > necessarily), are mitigated by the immediacy of the inherent diagnostic > advantage you have with a combined water supply. > > The foregoing is my opinion only and does not necessarily represent the > opinion or intent of the NFPA 13D/13R Technical Committee on Residential > Sprinkler Systems. > > Steve Leyton > Protection Design & Consulting > San Diego, CA > > > -----Original Message----- > From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org > [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Matsuda, > Richard > Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2012 1:18 PM > To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org > Subject: RE: 13R pump listing > > This is what I thought about the stored water supply...so now I have a > question that's bothered me ever since NFPA-13R put in the requirement > for a listed fire pump installed per NFPA-20. > > NFPA-13R allows the use of a domestic water to supply the fire sprinkler > system. So if we have a poor water supply and the plumber installs a > domestic water pump for the domestic water system, then are we allowed > to supply the fire sprinkler system with this domestic water system and > domestic pump? Of course the pump would have to be large enough to > supply both the domestic and sprinkler demands simultaneously, but do we > have any jurisdiction over the installation of the domestic pump? > I guess we could argue that we will not allow them to supply the > sprinkler system using this domestic water supply and "encourage" them > to install a fire pump per NFPA-20. > > rick matsuda > city of dallas, building inspection dept > > -----Original Message----- > From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org > [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of G. Tim > Stone > Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2012 2:59 PM > To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org > Subject: RE: 13R pump listing > > Rod, > > Read NFPA 13R, (2010 ed.) 9.3 Source, (4) "A stored water source with an > automatically operated pump". Notice it does not state Fire Pump. > > 9.4 says that "where a fire pump is installed, the pump shall be > installed in accordance with NFPA 20". > > Regards, > G. Tim Stone > > G. Tim Stone Consulting, LLC > NICET Level III Engineering Technician > Fire Protection Sprinkler Design > and Consulting Services > > 117 Old Stage Rd. - Essex Jct., VT. 05452 > CELL: (802) 373-0638 TEL: (802) 434-2968 Fax: (802) 434-4343 > tston...@comcast.net > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum- > >> boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Rod DiBona >> Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2012 3:38 PM >> To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org >> Subject: 13R pump listing >> >> It is my understanding that any pump used for 13R must be per NFPA 20. >> It has come to my attention that one of our competitors is using a >> model made by Talco Fire Systems. >> www.talcofiresystems.com<http://www.talcofiresystems.com> .... The >> salesmen told my estimator that all of the pieces are listed and the >> panel is listed but it is not listed as a unit. Their website states >> that " Talco 13-R Compact systems use an industrial grade pump that >> doesn't carry the UL/FM fire pump listing. An unlisted pump will >> provide the same reliable service as a listed pump, only with a >> substantially lower cost and vastly reduced lead time. Many fire >> marshalls or AHJ's<http://www.talcofire.com/glossary.html#ahj> will >> allow these systems but this will vary by locale or individual. As >> such, we ask that you submit the system to your AHJ for approval prior > >> to ordering." >> >> I call bull on this but the salesmen tells me that they sell them all >> over the country and they are considerably cheaper than the ones we >> have used in the past. Thoughts? >> >> >> [Description: LOGO_10] >> Rod DiBona >> Vice President >> Rapid Fire Protection >> office : (605)348-2342 >> fax : (605)348-0108 >> cell : (605)391-3553 >> www.rapidfireinc.com<http://www.rapidfireinc.com> >> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was >> scrubbed... >> URL: >> > <http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/private/sprinklerforum/attac >> hments/20120809/1e6c4914/attachment.html> >> -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was >> scrubbed... >> Name: image001.jpg >> Type: image/jpeg >> Size: 6561 bytes >> Desc: image001.jpg >> URL: >> > <http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/private/sprinklerforum/attac >> hments/20120809/1e6c4914/attachment.jpg> >> _______________________________________________ >> Sprinklerforum mailing list >> Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org >> http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum
