Cecil, another way of putting it...businesses should be building assets not liabilities. John Drucker - Mobile Email
----- Original Message ----- From: [email protected] <[email protected]> To: [email protected] <[email protected]> Sent: Mon Aug 05 09:06:31 2013 Subject: RE: Antifreeze (or DUDE, SERIOUSLY?!?!?!) Craig, The NFPA 13 Committee on Installation Criteria voted in favor of and the Standards Council issued a TIA for the 2010 edition of NFPA 13. The TIA allows LISTED ANTI-FREEZE ONLY. With that said, even if your AHJ enforces the 2007 edition, it is WRONG to install a new system using antifreeze. When I was in contracting, not so long ago, we didn't take jobs that would or could hurt us. We chased good money, not bad. And we were successful! Losing a project for the right reasons is the way to build a reputation that will bring the good customers with good money to you. Dewayne, The only time antifreeze is allowed is in a system that was tested and listed as such. The ONLY one on the market is an ESFR system and the Committee recognized that. The only time antifreeze is allowed to remain in an existing system is if the system is drained and the limited ratio, premixed solution is used AND a DETERMINISTIC RISK EVALUATION is conducted and approved. And even then, the solution will be required to be eliminated or replaced with a listed solution by the year 2022. You may ask, "Why are the existing systems allowed to have ANY antifreeze used in them?" And that is a valid question. The NFPA 25 Committee recognizes that the change over to dry or listed antifreeze wil l be an expensive effort. Therefore, the risk assesment may permit the owner of a system some time to change their system. All, DO NOT USE ANTI-FREEZE!!! You just may lose everything you have worked so hard to build in your business. Just as important, you may be jeopardizing the lives of the very people you are trying to protect. And THAT is the reality of the situation. I NEVER want to hear of a contractor, in the industry of which I am so proud to be a part, using bad practices when installing a life safety system. I'll be pleased to personally make a visit and explain this to the people you have business relationships with. It REALLY should be recognized that the above is my opinion as a member of the NFPA 13 and 25 Committees, and has not been processed as a formal interpretation in accordance with the NFPA Regulations Governing Committee Projects and should therefore NOT be considered, nor relied upon, as the official position of the the NFPA, nor any of their technical committees. Sincerely, Cecil Bilbo Academy of Fire Sprinkler Technology Champaign, IL 217.607.0325 www.sprinkleracademy.com [email protected] OUR STUDENTS SAVE LIVES!! > Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2013 07:43:40 -0400 > Subject: Re: Antifreeze > From: [email protected] > To: [email protected] > > I really appreciate the responses. I was looking for confirmation that my > thinking was correct. I lost a couple of bid jobs recently, one which was a > modification to an existing antifreeze system, essentially tripling the > size of the system, and the other was a wet and dry system. > > I expected to lose the job that modified the antifreeze system. I talked > with the engineer prior to the bid but was told to bid what was shown and > it would be modified after the bid. > > The combination system I knew I had a good price and was surprised when it > was given to another local company (same company that is doing the other > project). Well, I was curious so I visited the job site yesterday and was > very surprised to see the antifreeze loop ( this is Northern Michigan, > Marquette area) instead of the dry system. This shed some light on the > bid. I just wanted to make sure that my thought process was correct and > that I really shouldn't be installing antifreeze systems, at least not with > what freeze point solutions are currently available. > > -- > Craig Leadbetter > Safeguard of Marquette > PO Box 116 > Marquette, MI 49855 > > (O) 906-475-9955 > (F) 906-475-5474 > (C) 906-362-5393 > > [email protected] > > > > > > On Mon, Aug 5, 2013 at 12:47 AM, Rod DiBona <[email protected]> wrote: > > > Craig, > > > > www.nfpa.org/antifreeze has the information you are looking for. Pre mix > > is the only solution that is allowed in new installs. 48% glycerin and 38% > > glycol. I don't know where Forest is putting in his antifreeze systems, > > hopefully somewhere warm but these numbers are not going to do the job > > where we are. Not to mention the liability thing which is a whole different > > topic like Cecil said. So essentially not a viable option for new installs > > in cold country. Run if they are telling you to do it. > > > > Rod at Rapid > > > > ________________________________________ > > From: [email protected] [ > > [email protected]] on behalf of Craig > > Leadbetter [[email protected]] > > Sent: Sunday, August 04, 2013 1:27 PM > > To: [email protected] > > Subject: Antifreeze > > > > Are antifreeze systems allowed to be installed. > > > > I was understood that no one was making an approved antifreeze. Am I wrong? > > > > > > Craig Leadbetter > > > > Safeguard of Marquette > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Craig Leadbetter > > Safeguard of Marquette > > PO Box 116 > > Marquette, MI 49855 > > > > (O) 906-475-9955 > > (F) 906-475-5474 > > (C) 906-362-5393 > > > > [email protected] > > _______________________________________________ > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > [email protected] > > > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org > > _______________________________________________ > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > [email protected] > > > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org > > > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org CONFIDENTIAL AND PROPRIETARY: This email message is intended only for the use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed and may contain information that is privileged and confidential, nor is it, unless specifically stated, intended to be relied upon by any person or persons other than the individual or entity named above and no warranties or representations are made or intended to persons or entities not named above. 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