Sounds like a growing mushroom house.
On Wed, Jan 8, 2014 at 9:30 AM, Todd - Work <[email protected]> wrote: > Each 40 ft x 64 ft room in this area has six 9 ft x 20 ft tables, spaced 1 > ft apart in one direction and 3 ft apart in the other. Agricultural > occupancy so OH2 design. Tables are not skirted. In addition to wood > construction, there will be plastic sheeting and plastic tubing under the > table. (I am using the term "table" because that is what they call them). > It will be a wet environment by nature of the occupancy. > > One interesting semantic note is that 11.2.3.1.8 (3), which is the 3000 > sqft requirement, references 8.14.6, which is the platform requirement also > references combustible concealed spaces. But 8.14.6 only references > combustible spaces. Nothing about them being concealed > > Looking at this from a practical perspective (think like fire), if a fire > did start under a table, it could have significant time to develop before > being detected. There may not be enough heat generated to activate a > sprinkler until after it is well developed. Perhaps not until flames > actually shoot up around the edge of the table. If flames shoot up around > more than one side of the table (possible in a 9x20 table), then a lot of > sprinklers over a fairly large area could open. More than would be included > in a 1500 sqft area? Potentially. This is where my thought for the 3000 > sqft area comes from. (FWIW, EH2 occupancy description also references > shielded fires). > > As for liability, the nature of our society is that we need to consider > this as well as the technical aspect of our job. > > > Todd G Williams, PE > Fire Protection Design/Consulting > Stonington, CT > www.fpdc.com > 860-535-2080 (ofc) > > > On Jan 8, 2014, at 11:23 AM, "Brad Casterline" <[email protected]> > wrote: > > > > The distinction is probably not based on height. > > By strict definition from an NFPA standard (other than 13) whichever you > > call it and whether the sides are closed off or not it is not a concealed > > space, so I vote* no on the 3000 S.F. > > I think a 9" height is closer to a platform than a table so you have a > > platform and if you do not put at least a screen 'skirt' around it to > > prevent debris from accumulating underneath you will have to sprinkler > under > > it. > > > > > > Brad > > > > *not a P.E. or A.H.J. so i vote :) > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Todd - Work [mailto:[email protected]] > > Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2014 8:48 AM > > To: [email protected] > > Subject: Re: concealed space definition - part deux > > > > At what height does it cease to be a platform and become a table? > > > > If sprinklers are omitted from underneath the platform/table, would the > > ceiling system need to be calculated to 3000 sqft? > > > > Todd G Williams, PE > > Fire Protection Design/Consulting > > Stonington, CT > > www.fpdc.com > > 860-535-2080 (ofc) > > > >>> On Jan 8, 2014, at 9:30 AM, "Brad Casterline" <[email protected] > > > >> wrote: > >> > >> NFPA 73-2006 3.3.6 (partial): > >> > >> Concealed: > >> Rendered inaccessible by the structure or finish of the building. > >> > >> brad > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: John Denhardt [mailto:[email protected]] > >> Sent: Tuesday, January 07, 2014 4:56 PM > >> To: <[email protected]> > >> Subject: Re: concealed space definition > >> > >> I fully agree based on the 2013 edition. > >> > >> Thanks, > >> John August Denhardt P.E. > >> > >>> On Jan 7, 2014, at 4:26 PM, "G. Tim Stone" <[email protected]> > wrote: > >>> > >>> Todd, > >>> > >>> I would consider this a Platform and apply 8.15.6, 2010 ed. > >>> > >>> Regards, > >>> G. Tim Stone > >>> > >>> G. Tim Stone Consulting, LLC > >>> NICET Level III Engineering Technician > >>> Fire Protection Sprinkler Design > >>> and Consulting Services > >>> > >>> 117 Old Stage Rd. - Essex Jct., VT. 05452 > >>> CELL: (802) 373-0638 TEL: (802) 434-2968 Fax: (802) 434-4343 > >>> [email protected] > >>> > >>> > >>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>> From: [email protected] > >>>> [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of > >>> Steven > >>>> Scandaliato > >>>> Sent: Tuesday, January 07, 2014 4:20 PM > >>>> To: [email protected] > >>>> Subject: RE: concealed space definition > >>>> > >>>> Today...it is whatever you and the AHJ agree on. Hopefully (fingers > >>>> crossed) we will have a clear definition in the next edition as we are > >>>> working at adding the "gaps and clouds" section and with this will > come > >>> new > >>>> definitions including concealed spaces and the 4ft rule. Hold your > >>> breath! > >>>> Haha. > >>>> > >>>> Steven Scandaliato, SET CFPS > >>>> 520.971.2322 Cell > >>>> Skype: steven.scandaliato > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>> From: [email protected] > >>>> [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of > > Todd > >>> - > >>>> Work > >>>> Sent: Tuesday, January 07, 2014 3:12 PM > >>>> To: [email protected] > >>>> Subject: concealed space definition > >>>> > >>>> Is there an official definition of a concealed space? Is a 10 ft x 20 > ft > >>>> platform that is 9" off the ground but not enclosed on the sides > >>> considered > >>>> a concealed space? > >>>> > >>>> Todd G Williams, PE > >>>> Fire Protection Design/Consulting > >>>> Stonington, CT > >>>> www.fpdc.com > >>>> 860-535-2080 (ofc) > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> Sprinklerforum mailing list > >>>> [email protected] > >>>> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum- > >>>> firesprinkler.org > >>>> > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> Sprinklerforum mailing list > >>>> [email protected] > >>>> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum- > >>>> firesprinkler.org > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> Sprinklerforum mailing list > >>> [email protected] > > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Sprinklerforum mailing list > >> [email protected] > > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Sprinklerforum mailing list > >> [email protected] > > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org > > _______________________________________________ > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > [email protected] > > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > [email protected] > > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org > -- Ron Greenman Instructor Fire Protection Engineering Technology Bates Technical College 1101 So. Yakima Ave. Tacoma, WA 98405 [email protected] http://www.bates.ctc.edu/fireprotection/ 253.680.7346 253.576.9700 (cell) Member: ASEE, SFPE, ASCET, NFPA, AFSA, NFSA, AFAA, NIBS, WSAFM, WFC, WFSC They are happy men whose natures sort with their vocations. -Francis Bacon, essayist, philosopher, and statesman (1561-1626) A problem well stated is a problem half solved. -Charles F. Kettering, inventor and engineer (1876-1958) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
