An example of the split would be Design Approaches would not be in the same 'book' as the Hanger Spacing table. This is what I mean by questionable and unquestionable. Designers would have to know both, and fitters can know both but they could have the Field Guide on the job site. I'm just not expressing myself very well.
> On Jan 19, 2014, at 10:21 AM, Brad Casterline <[email protected]> wrote: > > Thanks jgamble,Todd and Ben. The split I am talking about is the questionable > from the unquestionable. And I guess architects have always had wild and > crazy ideas but they could not be built because they could not draw them but > now they can and if sprinks do not design using full 3d cad and navisworks > coord it is a disaster. Revit models show the thermal properties for all the > building materials which is great for the FPEs so the advances are a very > good thing. > >> On Jan 19, 2014, at 10:05 AM, Ben Young <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> Let me throw a small wrench in this argument. Does full 3D BIM modeling >> lessen or even eliminate the need for a designer with field experience? >> >> Our experience with full 3D modeling has been tremendous all around. The >> project managers and designers feel much more comfortable with the layout, >> and the field has found a tremendous reduction in having to re-work pipe. >> Its gotten to the point where we will model the building ourselves and do >> collision detection even when no other trades are doing so. >> >> The hardest problem with full project 3D coordination was getting our >> installers to not start changing stuff when others were in their way, and >> to check the BIM drawings to see who messed up what. >> >> >> I think that install experience is invaluable for most designers, and I >> personally regret not having any myself, but after 14 years in the >> industry, and countless humble experiences from installers, I think lack of >> installation experience can be overcome (and not in 14 years). >> >> Its all about how you train the designers; making sure they understand that >> their top priority is field support, and making the fitters jobs easier. >> You also have to train your field guys to give positive feedback, and >> redline drawings. This is critical. Early on in my career, we would only >> hear generalities, like 'your design was terrible, you hit everything' or >> we wouldn't hear anything at all: no news is good news, right? >> >> Now we make sure our junior designers get redlines back from the field and >> go out and see issues and problems, as well as places they did a good job. >> >> Another important thing I picked up a little while ago (thank you Mr. >> Church) is that you almost always send a superintendent or foreman out to >> any field surveys with the designer. This creates so much collaboration and >> buy-in from both parties, its great. You get a true team effort from the >> first day on a project, and it stops about 90% of the animosity on bigger >> projects. >> >> >> And to kind-of answer the original question, NFPA does make a pocket >> fitters guide for 13. :) >> >> >> Benjamin Young >> >> >>> On Sun, Jan 19, 2014 at 10:48 AM, Todd - Work <[email protected]> wrote: >>> >>> There was one company I worked for early on that had e design something >>> and then spend a week or two in the field actually installing it. Got a lot >>> of valuable experience that way. Unfortunately with current licensing laws, >>> that is somewhere between impractical and impossible. >>> >>> Todd G Williams, PE >>> Fire Protection Design/Consulting >>> Stonington, CT >>> www.fpdc.com >>> 860-535-2080 (ofc) >>> >>>> On Jan 19, 2014, at 10:38 AM, jgamble <[email protected]> wrote: >>>> >>>> I would have to agree with the premise that more than ever we need more >>> designers with in field experience >>>> as well as fitters with layout and hydraulic experience. If anything, >>> the two should be more intertwined. >>>> Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone >>>> >>>> -------- Original message -------- >>>> From: Charles Thurston <[email protected]> >>>> Date:01/19/2014 5:31 AM (GMT-07:00) >>>> To: [email protected] >>>> Subject: Re: into the future w/ NFPA 13 >>>> >>>> Hello Brad, >>>> >>>> I dis-agree with splitting them. If you do not know how to install it, >>> You sure da heck can't tell someone else how to install it. In 35 years on >>> and around construction, I have seen many many buildings designed (with >>> details) that can not be built the way they were designed. Is that what our >>> industry wants for Fire Sprinklers? >>>> >>>> Saturday, January 18, 2014, 9:40:52 PM, you wrote: >>>> >>>>> I remember when fitters knew 13 as well or better than designers. >>>>> The schedules and tables were essential then, because handheld >>>>> calculators were not prevalent- 13 was a Field Guide for >>>>> installation. This is not the case anymore. What should we do? Split >>> DESIGN from INSTALLATION? >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Sprinklerforum mailing list >>>>> [email protected] >>>>> >>> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Best regards, >>>> Charles Thurston mailto:[email protected] >>>> Systems Design Manager >>>> NICET Certified >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Sprinklerforum mailing list >>>> [email protected] >>>> >>> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Sprinklerforum mailing list >>>> [email protected] >>>> >>> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Sprinklerforum mailing list >>> [email protected] >>> >>> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> Sprinklerforum mailing list >> [email protected] >> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
