Yeah, but what about 8.16.4.1.5 Water-filled piping shall be permitted to be installed in areas where the temperature is less than 40°F (4°C) when heat loss calculations performed by a professional engineer verify that the system will not freeze.
On Fri, Jun 27, 2014 at 12:36 PM, Bob <[email protected]> wrote: > Sure, 8.4.9 Dry Sprinklers. > 8.4.9.1 Where dry sprinklers are connected to wet pipe sprinkler systems > protecting areas subject to freezing temperatures, the minimum exposed > length of the barrel of the dry sprinkler shall be in accordance with Table > 8.4.9.1. > > This section explicitly state where subject to freezing, and 38F isn't > subject to freezing. However, in my case the AHJ has interpreted in the > past that if it's not maintained at or above 40F it's subject to freezing. > > Thank You, > > Bob Knight, CET III > 208-318-3057 > www.Firebyknight.com > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Sprinklerforum [mailto: > [email protected]] > On Behalf Of IPA > Sent: Friday, June 27, 2014 1:28 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: Cooler Calc > > care to share? > > > On Fri, Jun 27, 2014 at 12:16 PM, Bob <[email protected]> wrote: > > > Nix the last question, I just found the answer. > > > > Thank You, > > > > Bob Knight, CET III > > 208-318-3057 > > www.Firebyknight.com > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Sprinklerforum [mailto: > > [email protected]] > > On Behalf Of Bob > > Sent: Friday, June 27, 2014 1:09 PM > > To: [email protected] > > Subject: RE: Cooler Calc > > > > 13 words it, in the section on dry pipe systems, at or above 40F. > > Where do I find it that on a wet system that I don't need to apply the > > temperature in the same way? > > > > Thank You, > > > > Bob Knight, CET III > > 208-318-3057 > > www.Firebyknight.com > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Sprinklerforum [mailto: > > [email protected]] > > On Behalf Of John Denhardt > > Sent: Friday, June 27, 2014 1:01 PM > > To: <[email protected]> > > Subject: Re: Cooler Calc > > > > Agree - we had done numerous cooler boxes and never have had an issue. > > Usually the stored products will be damaged if they freeze. In many > > case, the refrigeration unit shuts down if the temperature drops below > > a certain set temperature; 35 degree F is typical. > > > > Installing dry sprinklers where they are not required or necessarily > > is not good fire protection in my opinion. > > > > John > > > > Fire sprinklers save lives > > > > Sent from my iPad > > > > On Jun 27, 2014, at 11:54 AM, "[email protected]" > > <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > Exactly, we do 38F coolers with ESFR's. Never had a ..., I better > > > not say > > that might jinx it. > > > Ron F > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Sprinklerforum > > > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of > > > John Denhardt > > > Sent: Friday, June 27, 2014 11:49 AM > > > To: <[email protected]> > > > Subject: Re: Cooler Calc > > > > > > If the area is not subject to freezing, no need for dry sprinklers. > > > NFPA > > 13 only requires dry sprinklers or other method when the area is > > subject to freezing AND can not be readily maintained above 40 degrees F. > > > > > > The above is my personal opinion ..... > > > > > > > > > John > > > > > > Fire sprinklers save lives > > > > > > Sent from my iPad > > > > > > On Jun 27, 2014, at 11:42 AM, "Bob" <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > >> Ron, > > >> The temperature is maintained at 38F. The sprinklers used were EC > > >> OH SR dry sprinklers. > > >> > > >> Thank You, > > >> > > >> Bob Knight, CET III > > >> 208-318-3057 > > >> www.Firebyknight.com > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> -----Original Message----- > > >> From: Sprinklerforum > > >> [mailto:[email protected]] > > >> On Behalf Of [email protected] > > >> Sent: Friday, June 27, 2014 12:37 PM > > >> To: [email protected] > > >> Subject: RE: Cooler Calc > > >> > > >> A couple questions. If it is a cooler why do you need dry pendent > > >> heads? And if it has to be dry heads and they are on a wet system > > >> the RA could still be reduced couldn't it? > > >> > > >> Ron F > > >> > > >> -----Original Message----- > > >> From: Sprinklerforum > > >> [mailto:[email protected]] > > >> On Behalf Of Bob > > >> Sent: Friday, June 27, 2014 11:29 AM > > >> To: [email protected] > > >> Subject: RE: Cooler Calc > > >> > > >> Ron, > > >> Yes this is a remodel adding only the cooler. The existing ceiling > > >> demand was well above the .2 need in the cooler. > > >> > > >> Thank You, > > >> > > >> Bob Knight, CET III > > >> 208-318-3057 > > >> www.Firebyknight.com > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> -----Original Message----- > > >> From: Sprinklerforum > > >> [mailto:[email protected]] > > >> On Behalf Of rongreenman . > > >> Sent: Friday, June 27, 2014 12:11 PM > > >> To: [email protected] > > >> Subject: Re: Cooler Calc > > >> > > >> If the job is just the cooler then I think all the heads is > > >> sufficient within the perimeter of the cooler. If it's a part of > > >> the larger job you need to calc all the possible design areas. Not > > >> knowing the layout I can't say but maybe the ceiling somewhere is a > > >> design area, the cooler is potentially a design area, etc. But he's > > >> nuts if he thinks you need to add other sprinklers not in the fire > > >> area > > to make the fire area be 1500 sqft. > > >> Real is real. Math is math. Often the twin don't meet. > > >> > > >> > > >> On Fri, Jun 27, 2014 at 11:03 AM, Mike Hill <[email protected]> > > wrote: > > >> > > >>> I don't suppose that you are lucky enough to have a fire rated > cooler. > > >>> > > >>> Common sense would say that you calculate the cooler. > > >>> > > >>> Common practice would say calculate the cooler and/or a 1500 sq. ft. > > >>> area outside of the cooler. > > >>> > > >>> Mike Hill > > >>> > > >>> -----Original Message----- > > >>> From: Sprinklerforum [mailto: > > >>> [email protected]] > > >>> On Behalf Of Bob > > >>> Sent: Friday, June 27, 2014 1:47 PM > > >>> To: [email protected] > > >>> Subject: RE: Cooler Calc > > >>> > > >>> His stand is that I have one of three options that I have not used: > > >>> (1) Density/area curves of Figure 11.2.3.1.1 in accordance with > > >>> the density/area method of 11.2.3.2 > > >>> (2) The room that creates the greatest demand in accordance with > > >>> the room design method of 11.2.3.3 > > >>> (3) Special design areas in accordance with 11.2.3.4 > > >>> > > >>> Keep in mind that this is a jurisdiction that has told me in the > > >>> past that you can't use the exceptions in 13 (this was before they > > >>> became part of the body), and that they can't use common sense. > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> Thank You, > > >>> > > >>> Bob Knight, CET III > > >>> 208-318-3057 > > >>> www.Firebyknight.com > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> -----Original Message----- > > >>> From: Sprinklerforum [mailto: > > >>> [email protected]] > > >>> On Behalf Of Tim Stone > > >>> Sent: Friday, June 27, 2014 11:41 AM > > >>> To: [email protected] > > >>> Subject: RE: Cooler Calc > > >>> > > >>> The Cooler is a closed in room with a space above. You calculate > > >>> all the heads inside the cooler if less than 1500 SF. If the area > > >>> outside the cooler is fully sprinklered then you probably have > > >>> performed calcs already. I'd ask the AHJ to review NFPA 13. > > >>> > > >>> Regards, > > >>> G. Tim Stone > > >>> > > >>> G. Tim Stone Consulting, LLC > > >>> NICET Level III Engineering Technician Fire Protection Sprinkler > > >>> Design and Consulting Services > > >>> > > >>> 117 Old Stage Rd. - Essex Jct., VT. 05452 > > >>> CELL: (802) 373-0638 TEL: (802) 434-2968 Fax: (802) 434-4343 > > >>> [email protected] > > >>> > > >>> -----Original Message----- > > >>> From: Sprinklerforum [mailto: > > >>> [email protected]] > > >>> On Behalf Of Bob > > >>> Sent: Friday, June 27, 2014 1:12 PM > > >>> To: [email protected] > > >>> Subject: Cooler Calc > > >>> > > >>> I have a 1,392 sf cooler. I calc'ed the entire area of the cooler > > >>> and submitted. The AHJ is telling me that I need to calc > > >>> additional sprinklers at the ceiling to have a 1500 sf design > > >>> area. I don't think I need to do this, I was looking at this as a > > >>> separate fire area, and I don't see it being much different than > > >>> not adding heads below ducts or other large obstructions. Do I > > >>> need to calc additional sprinklers at the ceiling for this > application? > > >>> > > >>> Thank You, > > >>> > > >>> Bob Knight, CET III > > >>> 208-318-3057 > > >>> www.Firebyknight.com > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> _______________________________________________ > > >>> Sprinklerforum mailing list > > >>> [email protected] > > >>> > > >>> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firespr > > >>> in > > >>> k > > >>> l > > >>> er.org > > >>> > > >>> _______________________________________________ > > >>> Sprinklerforum mailing list > > >>> [email protected] > > >>> > > >>> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firespr > > >>> in > > >>> k > > >>> l > > >>> er.org > > >>> > > >>> _______________________________________________ > > >>> Sprinklerforum mailing list > > >>> [email protected] > > >>> > > >>> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firespr > > >>> in > > >>> k > > >>> l > > >>> er.org > > >>> > > >>> _______________________________________________ > > >>> Sprinklerforum mailing list > > >>> [email protected] > > >>> > > >>> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firespr > > >>> in > > >>> k > > >>> l > > >>> er.org > > >>> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> -- > > >> Ron Greenman > > >> Instructor > > >> Fire Protection Engineering Technology Bates Technical College > > >> 1101 So. Yakima Ave. > > >> Tacoma, WA 98405 > > >> > > >> [email protected] > > >> > > >> http://www.bates.ctc.edu/fireprotection/ > > >> > > >> 253.680.7346 > > >> 253.576.9700 (cell) > > >> > > >> Member: > > >> ASEE, SFPE, ASCET, NFPA, AFSA, NFSA, AFAA, NIBS, WSAFM, WFC, WFSC > > >> > > >> They are happy men whose natures sort with their vocations. > > >> -Francis Bacon, essayist, philosopher, and statesman (1561-1626) > > >> > > >> A problem well stated is a problem half solved. -Charles F. > > >> Kettering, inventor and engineer (1876-1958) > > >> _______________________________________________ > > >> Sprinklerforum mailing list > > >> [email protected] > > >> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firespri > > >> nk > > >> l > > >> er.org > > >> > > >> _______________________________________________ > > >> Sprinklerforum mailing list > > >> [email protected] > > >> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firespri > > >> nk l er.org _______________________________________________ > > >> Sprinklerforum mailing list > > >> [email protected] > > >> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firespri > > >> nk > > >> l > > >> er.org > > >> > > >> _______________________________________________ > > >> Sprinklerforum mailing list > > >> [email protected] > > >> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firespri > > >> nk > > >> l > > >> er.org > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > > [email protected] > > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprin > > > kl er.org _______________________________________________ > > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > > [email protected] > > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprin > > > kl > > > er.org > > _______________________________________________ > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > [email protected] > > > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkl > > er.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > [email protected] > > > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkl > > er.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > [email protected] > > > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkl > > er.org > > > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org > > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org > _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
