Please quit using the term "remote area." That worked very well when the
hydraulically most demanding area typically was furthest from the riser but
that configuration has become one among many possibilities rather than the
most common. Too many youngsters get confused. I also suggest the using the
optional plural { (s) }. So: hydraulically most demanding area(s) is a
better description. Doesn't answer the walls question, but no, they're not
there. Remember this is a math problem, not an obstruction problem. When
calcing you're better served not worrying about what is happening with the
physics. You'll be wrong no matter what you visualize as the construct is a
method, not a model.On Wed, Oct 22, 2014 at 8:59 AM, Roland Huggins <[email protected]> wrote: > If walls were intended to be applied as a bounding variable the standard > would state it as such. 13 says to calculate the most demanding rectangle > (or shape similar to it since the BL furthest upstream typically has few > sprinklers). That applies only to the PORTION of the building applying the > assigned design basis (since a single system can have different areas of > the floor with a different design basis). IT doesn’t matter what the > rating level is (as long as it is not a fire wall separating two buildings > within one structure). The exception is the aforementioned room design > method. > > This methodology intentionally ignores the reality of fire growth (as does > much of the process) so we can easily define the pathway of piping that > creates the largest demand. That way we know activation of sprinklers for > other arrangements (that do follow reality) will be less demanding. So > don’t over think it and embrace the simplicity. > > This is for new installations. When modifying an existing system, have a > discussion with the AHJ about why it makes sense to apply the reality of > fire/heat spread and the interface with walls. > > As a member of the NFPA 13 technical committee, I must say that this is my > opinion (and I’ll venture to say all the rest of the TC members would > concur) and is not to be considered a formal interpretation of NFPA or any > of its technical committees. > > Roland > > > Roland Huggins, PE - VP Engineering > American Fire Sprinkler Assn. --- Fire Sprinklers Saves Lives > Dallas, TX > http://www.firesprinkler.org > > > > > > On Oct 22, 2014, at 8:27 AM, Brian Harris <[email protected]> > wrote: > > > My original question was not about Room Design, I was asking if interior > walls came into play when laying out a remote area using the Design Density > method. Thanks! > > > > Brian Harris, CET > > BVS Systems Inc. > > bvssytemsinc.com > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Sprinklerforum [mailto: > [email protected]] On Behalf Of > [email protected] > > Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2014 11:22 AM > > To: [email protected] > > Subject: RE: Remote Area & Walls > > > > I apologize, I missed the "room design" when I read through originally. > My statement was for Density/Area. > > > > Thanks, > > > > Sean Van Gaal > > Project Manager > > Nicet III Water-Based System Layout #124801 > > P: (623) 580-7818 > > C: (602) 400-4512 > > F: (623) 434-3154 > > [email protected] > > > > AERO Automatic Sprinkler Co. > > 21605 N. Central Ave. > > Phoenix, AZ, 85024 > > (623) 580-7800 > > aerofire.com > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Sprinklerforum [mailto: > [email protected]] On Behalf Of Daniel Wilder > > Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2014 8:17 AM > > To: [email protected] > > Subject: RE: Remote Area & Walls > > > > 13' 13ed > > > > 11.2.3.3.3 To utilize the room design method, all rooms shall be > enclosed with walls having a fire-resistance rating equal to the water > supply duration indicated in Table 11.2.3.1.2. > > > > going into 11.2.3.3.5 for non-rated OR self-closing doors...and with > unprotected openings (with & without an 8" lintel) for the light hazard > side to include an additional 2 heads outside the space > > > > OH & EH require automatic or self-closing doors with a rating equal to > the water supply duration requirements. > > > > Walls and doors/openings come into play > > > > Dan W > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Sprinklerforum [mailto: > [email protected]] On Behalf Of > [email protected] > > Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2014 7:26 AM > > To: [email protected] > > Subject: RE: Remote Area & Walls > > > > Although I do not think it is expressly stated, I've used the hose > durations on the determining factor on if I have to go through fire rated > walls. If you have a light hazard occupancy with a 30min hose stream > duration requirement, I don't see why you should be expected to calculate > heads on the other side that rated wall. However if you have and OH1 > hazard, you should calculate through the 1hr rated wall but not a 2+hr > rating. > > > > Thanks, > > > > Sean Van Gaal > > Project Manager > > Nicet III Water-Based System Layout #124801 > > P: (623) 580-7818 > > C: (602) 400-4512 > > F: (623) 434-3154 > > [email protected] > > > > AERO Automatic Sprinkler Co. > > 21605 N. Central Ave. > > Phoenix, AZ, 85024 > > (623) 580-7800 > > aerofire.com > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Sprinklerforum [mailto: > [email protected]] On Behalf Of Cliff > Whitfield > > Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2014 6:37 AM > > To: [email protected] > > Subject: RE: Remote Area & Walls > > > > Brian, > > > > From what I remember, it doesn't matter. Of course, nothing is ever > 'black & white' so there could be several scenarios where the fire walls > and their rating might matter. Unless it was going into an area with a > different occupancy, I would err on the conservative side and be sure I was > using the most demanding area and ignore the walls. > > > > Others may have a more 'un-official' stance or different opinion. > > > > Cliff Whitfield, SET > > President > > Fire Design, Inc. > > Ph: 719-488-3479 > > > > > > > > [email protected] > > www.fire-design.com > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Sprinklerforum [mailto: > [email protected]] > > On Behalf Of Brian Harris > > Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2014 7:31 AM > > To: [email protected] > > Subject: RE: Remote Area & Walls > > > > Cliff- > > What about Fire Rated walls? > > > > Brian Harris, CET > > BVS Systems Inc. > > bvssytemsinc.com > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Sprinklerforum [mailto: > [email protected]] > > On Behalf Of Cliff Whitfield > > Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2014 9:29 AM > > To: [email protected] > > Subject: RE: Remote Area & Walls > > > > Brian, > > > > Don't have the book in front of me, but this is correct. You would only > take the interior walls into account if you were using the 'Room Design > Method'. > > > > Cliff Whitfield, SET > > President > > Fire Design, Inc. > > Ph: 719-488-3479 > > > > > > > > [email protected] > > www.fire-design.com > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Sprinklerforum [mailto: > [email protected]] > > On Behalf Of Brian Harris > > Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2014 7:15 AM > > To: [email protected] > > Subject: Remote Area & Walls > > > > Apparently sometime in the night the code gremlins snuck in my office > and removed pages from my book because I swear I remember reading that when > laying out the remote area you do not take into account interior walls but > now I can't find it. Anybody? > > > > Brian Harris, CET > > BVS Systems Inc. > > Sprinkler Division > > bvssystemsinc.com<http://bvssystemsinc.com/> > > Phone: 704.896.9989 > > Fax: 704.896.1935 > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > [email protected] > > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > [email protected] > > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org > > _______________________________________________ > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > [email protected] > > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > [email protected] > > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org > > _______________________________________________ > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > [email protected] > > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org > > _______________________________________________ > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > [email protected] > > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org > > _______________________________________________ > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > [email protected] > > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org > > _______________________________________________ > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > [email protected] > > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org > > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org > -- Ron Greenman Instructor Fire Protection Engineering Technology Bates Technical College 1101 So. Yakima Ave. Tacoma, WA 98405 [email protected] http://www.bates.ctc.edu/fireprotection/ 253.680.7346 253.576.9700 (cell) Member: ASEE, SFPE, ASCET, NFPA, AFSA, NFSA, AFAA, NIBS, WSAFM, WFC, WFSC They are happy men whose natures sort with their vocations. -Francis Bacon, essayist, philosopher, and statesman (1561-1626) A problem well stated is a problem half solved. -Charles F. Kettering, inventor and engineer (1876-1958) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
