I am not smart enough to know if an existing system will hydraulically work when adding substantial friction loss for flex drops. I disagree with the contention that you can change hard pipe to flexible drops without some kind of evaluation. This prevents us from using them sometimes but I would rather err on the side of caution.
Greg McGahan Living Water Fire Protection, LLC <http://www.livingwaterfp.com> 1160 McKenzie Road Cantonment, FL 32533 850-937-1850 fax 850-937-1852 On Tue, Aug 30, 2016 at 11:47 AM, <[email protected]> wrote: > Travis, > > > > What you say here is true. It is also very helpful as you mention when > you have multiple areas to calculate and you can’t “eyeball” the most > hydraulically remote. However it isn’t without risk. Many times we have > done this, and during our QC process realized some of the sprinklers were > not setup properly for the hazard they are protecting, or found that a > sprinkler was disconnected, or accidentally picked up sprinklers we didn’t > intend to. Same can be said about the piping network. Or someone > accidentally copied a pipe that they manually overwrote 90’s Tee’s Valve’s > etc into a straight run rather than drawing them. > > > > So, I agree AutoSprink can be very helpful with multiple calcs. I just > offer the word of warning to those who think computers will be replacing > smart designers anytime soon. > > > > Thanks, > > Sean VG > > > > > > > > *From:* Sprinklerforum [mailto:[email protected]. > org] *On Behalf Of *Travis Mack, SET > *Sent:* Tuesday, August 30, 2016 9:14 AM > *To:* [email protected] > *Subject:* Re: Flexheads in small renovation (Calculation Software) > > > > And that is the beauty of software like AutoSprink. Just put the boundary > on the plan. Select all of them you have and tell it to keep the > hydraulically most demanding. Simple and sweet. > > When it may be a challenge for the AHJ to believe the area I select, then > I will submit multiple areas just to eliminate questions. > > The software packages today and power of the personal computer make this > entire thread a mute point - provided the information is available. If you > have the system drawn, it is literally a matter of seconds to calculate an > area. It is not like those of us who learned by hand back in the day and > it would be a long drawn out process. > > Travis Mack, SET > > MFP Design, LLC > > 2508 E Lodgepole Drive > > Gilbert, AZ 85298 > > 480-505-9271 > > fax: 866-430-6107 > > email:[email protected] > > > > http://www.mfpdesign.com > > https://www.facebook.com/pages/MFP-Design-LLC/92218417692 > > Send large files to us via: https://www.hightail.com/u/MFPDesign > > LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/travismack > > On 8/30/2016 9:08 AM, rongreenman . wrote: > > I'd agree with Mark except for two little irritations of mine when > discussing this. "Remote Area" was a term that worked when we just > sprinklered big boxes that housed either factories or warehouses as the > "remote area" (furthest from the rider) was typically the hydraulically > most demanding area. These days that area can be anywhere (a grid being the > always example). Hydraulically most demanding area is too muchoif a > mouthful for describing itself so I just prefer design or demand area. This > pet peeve came about from teaching newbies the basics as they'd often get > it in their minds that remote meant furthest away and so would want to > calculate the the x number of heads at the greatest distance as the crow > flies over the plan. That is also the basis of pet peeve two that "remote > area" also suggests that there is only one possibility and it's easy to > find. Determining the design area(s) is an art. I have an exercise based on > a building no one would ever build but it gas over a dozen potential design > areas and just as Mark says the student needs to determine where and which > are most likely by estimating demand at each location. > > > On Tuesday, August 30, 2016, <[email protected]> wrote: > > My personal belief is that the designer “designs” the “remote” area into > the system, and a good designer will design the overall system to > economically benefit from “where” the remote area lies. Unfortunately, I > think most systems are laid out, sized, and then calculations are performed > to determine where the remote area lies. > > As Steve says “just my opinion” > > Mark at Aero > > 602 820-7894 > > > > *From:* Sprinklerforum [mailto:[email protected]. > org] *On Behalf Of *Bill Brooks > *Sent:* Tuesday, August 30, 2016 8:32 AM > *To:* [email protected] > *Subject:* RE: Flexheads in small renovation (Calculation Software) > > > > You will be able to tell this question is based on minimum software > application experience, but does current software automatically determine > “most demanding”? Or, is it up to the human operator to guess where this > area might be? If it’s a guess, how do you know you have chosen correctly? > > > > Bill Brooks > > > > *From:* Sprinklerforum [mailto:[email protected]. > org] *On Behalf Of *Steve Leyton > *Sent:* Tuesday, August 30, 2016 10:40 AM > *To:* [email protected] > *Subject:* RE: Flexheads in small renovation > > > > To underscore John’s point, these fittings impose with a SUBSTANTIAL > pressure loss. As 3rd party, we would ask for calculations to prove the > performance of the revised configuration. > > > > SL > > > > *From:* Sprinklerforum [mailto:[email protected]. > org] *On Behalf Of *Michael Hill > *Sent:* Tuesday, August 30, 2016 6:11 AM > *To:* [email protected] > *Subject:* RE: Flexheads in small renovation > > > > I agree with Richard, it needs to be evaluated. It is known that flex > piping is generally more demanding than their hard piped counterparts. If > the base building design did not include flex piping, I would look at it as > a change to base building design and perform a quick calculation to see how > it looks. I assume they didn’t use excessively long flex pipe with more > bends or lops than were needed. > > > > Mike Hill > > > > *From:* Sprinklerforum [mailto:[email protected]. > org] *On Behalf Of *Todd Williams > *Sent:* Tuesday, August 30, 2016 8:39 AM > *To:* [email protected] > *Subject:* RE: Flexheads in small renovation > > > > This is a single story building. Multiple looped 4" and 3" cross mains > with branches to wings. (Think nursing home with interior court yards). No > fire pump. 100 psi static with a flat curve (2 year old test, DeltaE = 0). > Area in question not most hydraulically remote but toward that end of the > building. Branch lines are fed from the loop, not a DE branch main. LH > occupancy. > > > > I am not worried about this not being adequate, more a consensus of what > needs to be done and what is correct. > > Todd G Williams, PE > > Fire Protection Design/Consulting > > Stonington, CT > > 860-535-2080 (ofc) > > 860-608-4559 (cell) > > > > Sent using CloudMagic > <https://cloudmagic.com/k/d/mailapp?ct=ti&cv=6.0.64&pv=8.2> > > > > On Tue, Aug 30, 2016 at 8:22 AM, Richard Carr <[email protected]> wrote: > > I can’t disagree with John (Hi John) but we need more info to make the > call, > > In remote area? > > Fire pump? > > What is safety margin on existing? > > What is friction loss on the flex? > > > > Just because you add 4 flex piping to an existing system does not require > it to be calculated. But does need to be evaluated. > > > > Richard Carr, SET > > Branch Manager > > Cox Fire Protection, Inc > > 6555 Grace Lane. > > Jacksonville, Fl. 32205 > > [email protected] > > 904-781-8227 > > > > *From:* Sprinklerforum [mailto:[email protected]. > org] *On Behalf Of *John Irwin > *Sent:* Tuesday, August 30, 2016 7:14 AM > *To:* [email protected] > *Subject:* RE: Flexheads in small renovation > > > > I disagree with Richard. (Hi Richard!) > > > > Relocating these sprinklers with flex heads may very well change the > location of the most hydraulically remote area to the place you are > working. Flex-heads come with a substantial pressure loss. Even if doing > calculations wasn’t required, I would want to do them for myself for peace > of mind. My belief has always been that you can’t tax the system without > verifying that it still works. > > > > *John Irwin* > > Manger – Fire Sprinkler Division > > > *Critical System Solutions, LLC *Cell: 813.618.2781 > > Email: [email protected] > > > > > > *From:* Sprinklerforum [mailto:[email protected]. > org] *On Behalf Of *Richard Carr > *Sent:* Tuesday, August 30, 2016 7:08 AM > *To:* [email protected] > *Subject:* RE: Flexheads in small renovation > > > > Are the relocates in the remote area? if not I would not calc. also , some > flex brands are better that others as far as friction loss. > > > > Richard Carr, SET > > Branch Manager > > Cox Fire Protection, Inc > > 6555 Grace Lane. > > Jacksonville, Fl. 32205 > > [email protected] > > 904-781-8227 > > > > *From:* Sprinklerforum [mailto:[email protected]. > org] *On Behalf Of *Todd Williams > *Sent:* Tuesday, August 30, 2016 6:30 AM > *To:* [email protected] > *Subject:* Flexheads in small renovation > > > > I have a client that did a 4 sprinkler relocate job in an office and used > Flexheads (no sprinklers added). If the sprinklers were connected with hard > pipe, I would probably not do hydraulic calculations. Given that we have > FHs, should I be doing a full 900 or 1500 sqft calculation? > > Todd G Williams, PE > > Fire Protection Design/Consulting > > Stonington, CT > > 860-535-2080 (ofc) > > 860-608-4559 (cell) > > > > Sent using CloudMagic > <https://cloudmagic.com/k/d/mailapp?ct=ti&cv=6.0.64&pv=8.2> > > > > > > -- > Sent from Gmail Mobile > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > [email protected] > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler. > org > >
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