My pleasure sir.

b
On Sep 16, 2016 3:06 PM, "J.P. Merlino/Ing. L.Lagomarsino & Asoc." <
jmerl...@lliconsult.com> wrote:

> Thanks Brad.
>
>
>
> I understand your point and the code a little bit more.
>
>
>
> best
>
>
>
> Juan Pedro
>
>
>
>
>
> *De:* Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-bounces@lists.firesprinkler.
> org] *En nombre de *Brad Casterline
> *Enviado el:* viernes, 16 de septiembre de 2016 04:13 p.m.
> *Para:* sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
> *Asunto:* RE: Open-Grid Ceilings - Egg crate
>
>
>
> You're welcome J. P.
> You can't go wrong with full compliance!
> You definitely need the compliment at the bottom of the deck and I assume
> the reason NFPA 13 is 'silent' on that is because with unobstructed
> construction it screams, "12 INCH MAX DEFLECTOR". :) It took me 30 years to
> see activation right. The ceiling is not where the heat changes direction
> from up to down but from up to out, in an emergency.
> For LH and OH, normal ceiling heights I believe the 'out' is 400-600 F at
> 5-10 ft/sec.
> I liked Allen's write-up. Too bad the book doesn't say ~the depth of the
> egg-crate shall not exceed twice the least dimension where the pattern has
> five feet to get straightened out in the down direction~.
>
> Brad
>
> On Sep 16, 2016 7:14 AM, "J.P. Merlino/Ing. L.Lagomarsino & Asoc." <
> jmerl...@lliconsult.com> wrote:
>
> We will most likely put two levels of sprinklers, one over and other at
> ceiling level. Maybe the ceiling level shall be the intermediate level type
> to avoid skipping.
>
>
>
> As stated by Mr. Seidel, we are in the performance field here. I do not
> find that the standard gives the egg-crate (those that obstruct water
> discharge) a "ceiling effect" to hot gases and waive the upper level of
> sprinklers.
>
>
>
> AHJ will not give opinion or requirement on this issues. We follow full
> compliance with NFPA 13.
>
>
>
> Thanks for all replies.
>
>
>
> J.P. Merlino
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *De:* Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-bounces@lists.firesprinkler.
> org] *En nombre de *AKS-Gmail-IMAP
> *Enviado el:* viernes, 16 de septiembre de 2016 12:24 a.m.
> *Para:* sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
> *Asunto:* Re: Open-Grid Ceilings - Egg crate
>
>
>
> As we all well know, we are not supposed to apply conventional wisdom in
> regard to the standard. We are to do what is says, period. For example the
> thought, “there is nothing there to burn”, is forbidden because a premise
> to the standard is that there already is a fire. The standard is about how
> we are to deal with it. The egg-crate question is one part of the standard
> where we are forced to apply a conventional wisdom opinion. Perhaps the
> unanswered root question is, “At what level of perforation does a
> perforated ceiling cease to be a ceiling with ceiling level only sprinklers
> required to become a ceiling with sprinklers required both at the ceiling
> and above the ceiling?”. The standard actually appears to approach this
> subject in reverse. “We allow sprinklers above a perforated ceiling, and
> here is the distance and spacing etc., but when that ceiling gets to be
> like this, then sprinklers are also required at the ceiling plane.” Can we
> turn that around to define when a ceiling is no longer a ceiling? A 69%
> open ceiling is a ceiling? A 71% open ceiling is not a ceiling?
>
>
>
> We already know how to deal with clouds, at least better than before, and
> we also know a little better how to deal with “small openings” for HVAC,
> but there is no guidance for some ceilings now in vogue, especially the
> thin sheet metal ceilings, that by the way, are available in open-ness much
> higher than 70%. The egg-crate in question sounds like it flat out flunks
> the sprinklers required only above standard even though conventional wisdom
> knows sprinklers far above the ceiling would not have their distribution
> obstructed, because it is vertical when it meets the ceiling and of course,
> all water would drip through at the rate it is being applied. Would a metal
> ceiling arrest some flames thereby slowing down the upper level activation?
> Maybe, but that may not be to the benefit of ceiling level sprinklers at
> conditions near the flunk boundary.
>
>
>
> The tag team member to this very same topic is the question, “Now that I
> have this perforated ceiling that flunks the ok egg-crate test, how far
> away do I carry these above ceiling sprinklers? 24 feet all around,
> seriously?”
>
>
>
> Maybe the cloud committee is actively performing tests for these
> conditions or perhaps these conditions have been tested.
>
>
>
> Allan Seidel
>
> St. Louis, MO
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sep 15, 2016, at 4:59 PM, J.P. Merlino/Ing. L.Lagomarsino & Asoc. <
> jmerl...@lliconsult.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> Dear Sirs:
>
> NFPA 13 Ed. 2016 - 8.15.14
>
>
>
> If we have an open grid egg-crate that meets 70% open space but the depth
> of the material (2 in) exceeds the least dimension (1 in) it does not
> comply with the allowance not to install sprinkler beneath and we must
> install in the egg-crate (or beneath).
>
> But the standard is silent on what to do with the space over the
> egg-crate. Shall we have two layers of sprinklers, one in the egg-crate and 
> the
> other over the egg-crate as if the egg-crate does not exist?
>
> I appreciate your thoughts or if we are missing something.
>
> best regards
>
> J.P. Merlino
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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