I meant to say "if semi permanent there maybe another partial solution.

Bv

Sent from my iPhone

> On Sep 19, 2016, at 15:14, Bruce Verhei <bver...@comcast.net> wrote:
> 
> Craig
> 
> I don't know of an EH listed hole in a pipe either. I'd also doubt this 
> traces back to a full scale fire test at some facility equivalent to Groton.
> 
> Is this one trailer, semi-permanently parked, or a regular delivery?
> 
> If semi-permanent the real fire problem is the high heat output, venting to 
> the building.
> 
> The origin of the solution is probably someone making a best solution even if 
> not prescriptive or engineered. If that is true then a reasoned person might 
> improve a "best arrived at solution", using tools available now.
> 
> 1. Massive heat output per square footage derived from burning pallets, 
> venting into building. Install overhead roll up fire door.
> 
> But if we're not going there, but doing best arrived at, why not add to the 
> specs use of a semi-trailer built with corrugated thermoplastic strips on 
> aluminum frames. Not listed by anyone and maybe not commonly available when 
> whoever drew up this best practice did so. But I know that the plastic fails 
> fairly quick in a fire. I'd rather vent the heat to the open sky and accept 
> exposing adjacent trailers than vent to warehouse. My usual comment about 
> adjacent sign.
> 
> And holes? The goal is for the water to absorb the heat. There are fixed 
> spray nozzles that would work better. Or open sprinkler heads. And no 
> strainer needed or likely to plug.
> 
> Best
> 
>> On Sep 19, 2016, at 14:04, <craig.pr...@ch2m.com> <craig.pr...@ch2m.com> 
>> wrote:
>> 
>> These would be in an Extra Hazard type occupancy, SW sprinkler don’t have 
>> any Listed or Approved for EH type occupancies.
>>  
>> The drilled pipe is an option given if there is not a location to install 
>> sprinklers where they can be protected from damage from for trucks for 
>> example.  The thing about that, is they call for dry pilot detection but are 
>> worried about an open spray sprinkler being damaged.  That made no sense.  
>> Busting off a pilot head causes the system to dump, busting off a spray 
>> nozzle is a maintenance repair.
>>  
>> Good analysis though.
>>  
>> 
>> Craig L. Prahl 
>> Fire Protection Group Lead/SME
>> CH2M
>> 200 Verdae Blvd. 
>> Greenville, SC  29607
>> Direct - 864.920.7540
>> Fax - 864.920.7129
>> CH2MHILL Extension  77540
>> craig.pr...@ch2m.com
>> 
>>  
>> From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] 
>> On Behalf Of Bruce Verhei
>> Sent: Monday, September 19, 2016 4:39 PM
>> To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
>> Subject: Re: spray bar versus deluge heads for opening protection [EXTERNAL]
>>  
>> Why not a large orifice sidewall at each side of each trailer? 
>>  
>> Going back to objectives, and what is not objective. Writing it out helps, 
>> at least me.
>>  
>> 1. Goal is not to protect trailer or trailers contents;
>>  
>> Assumed after this:
>>  
>> 2. Goal is not to keep fire originating in building from spreading to 
>> trailer/contents.
>>  
>> 3. Goal is to confine fire originating in trailer or at opening from 
>> spreading to building. 
>>  
>> 4. Design to reduce smoke damage is not a consideration.
>>  
>> 5. Activation reliability/cost. Normally we think of reliability and cost as 
>> being in conflict. In this case I don't think they are. It is my observation 
>> that sprinkler heads are much more reliable than detection system coupled to 
>> deluge valve.
>>  
>> 6. Effectiveness. Some judgement and experience are call for. But I'd expect 
>> the sidewall would likely be as or more effective at cooling the plume 
>> moving into the building as the drill holes. 
>>  
>> 7. On-going cost. Sidewall would be cheaper. 
>>  
>> 8. Feasibility. We'd need to see more detail to see this.
>>  
>> 9. Alarm, and response. Deluge detection, and sidewall would both result in 
>> response. Assuming waterflow detection and off-site monitoring.
>>  
>> Is this an old European national standard that pre-dates the EU? Similar 
>> here to that DOD long term housing goods storage in plywood bins, 
>> administered by someone who doesn't understand and doesn't care?
>> 
>> You might find this has been around for decades, long before higher flow 
>> sidewalls were available. (Again, like that outside canopy/loading dock 
>> detail showing a dry pendant on a 45. Why? Because it was quite awhile 
>> before dry sidewalls were commonly available.)
>>  
>> Maybe asking the question will result in a change in practice. To me it 
>> sounds like a spec coated in dust.
>>  
>> Best
>>  
>> Bruce Verhei
>> 
>> On Sep 19, 2016, at 08:59, <mphe...@aerofire.com> <mphe...@aerofire.com> 
>> wrote:
>> 
>> Because, Ron, it would need to be a fuse that is UL Listed for use with the 
>> Keg. (actuating device) But it would be fun to watch the test.
>> Mark at Aero
>> 602 820-7894
>>  
>> From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] 
>> On Behalf Of rongreenman .
>> Sent: Monday, September 19, 2016 8:50 AM
>> To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
>> Subject: Re: spray bar versus deluge heads for opening protection
>>  
>> Why not just put a barrel of water on top of keg of black powder with a fuse 
>> going into the trailer? 
>>  
>>  
>> On Mon, Sep 19, 2016 at 8:47 AM, Brad Casterline <bcasterl...@fsc-inc.com> 
>> wrote:
>> That's upstream Gus. I'm just trying to help Craig get out of the (if Mr.
>> Greenman will pardon my French) Remote Area with the calc software he has.
>> 
>> :)
>> 
>> Brad
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org]
>> On Behalf Of Gus Olson
>> Sent: Monday, September 19, 2016 10:37 AM
>> To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
>> Subject: RE: spray bar versus deluge heads for opening protection
>> 
>> Brad,
>> Don't forget to add a strainer
>> 
>> Gus Olson
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org]
>> On Behalf Of Brad Casterline
>> Sent: Monday, September 19, 2016 11:30 AM
>> To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
>> Subject: RE: spray bar versus deluge heads for opening protection
>> 
>> P = 40 PSI
>> K = 1.55
>> Q = 9.8 GPM
>> 
>> 36 GPM / 9.8 = 3.67 holes per nozzle
>> 
>> call it 4 :)
>> 
>> Brad
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org]
>> On Behalf Of craig.pr...@ch2m.com
>> Sent: Monday, September 19, 2016 9:57 AM
>> To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
>> Subject: RE: spray bar versus deluge heads for opening protection
>> 
>> Dude, you need serious help.   HAHA
>> 
>> Now how many average sprinkler designers could have figured that out?
>> 
>> But it has to equal the discharge of spray nozzles which are required to
>> provide a minimum of 36 gpm at 40 psi around the perimeter.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Craig L. Prahl
>> Fire Protection Group Lead/SME
>> CH2M
>> 200 Verdae Blvd.
>> Greenville, SC  29607
>> Direct - 864.920.7540
>> Fax - 864.920.7129
>> CH2MHILL Extension  77540
>> craig.pr...@ch2m.com
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org]
>> On Behalf Of Brad Casterline
>> Sent: Monday, September 19, 2016 10:37 AM
>> To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
>> Subject: RE: spray bar versus deluge heads for opening protection [EXTERNAL]
>> 
>> (.25/24)^2 * PI = .000314 ft^2
>> assume coefficient of discharge of .9
>> .000314 *.9 = .000283
>> 
>> 'imply' 7 PSI
>> 7 / .433 = 16.167 (h)
>> v = (2gh)^.5 = 32.266 ft/sec
>> 
>> 32.266 ft/sec * .000283 ft^3 = .00913 ft^3/sec, * 7.48 * 60 = 4.1 GPM
>> 
>> Q = 4.1
>> P = 7.0
>> K = 1.55
>> 
>> Brad
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org]
>> On Behalf Of craig.pr...@ch2m.com
>> Sent: Monday, September 19, 2016 9:11 AM
>> To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
>> Subject: spray bar versus deluge heads for opening protection
>> 
>> Today's teaser.
>> 
>> An owner gives you this criteria for protecting a truck dock door opening.
>> A semi-trailer is parked at the opening up against the dock seal, the
>> trailer contains wooded pallets.
>> 
>> The rollup door and the trailer doors remain open at all times for in and
>> out access.
>> 
>> Their recommended method of protecting the opening is to use 1.5" pipe with
>> 1/4" holes drilled every 6".  Provide this around the opening which is 12"
>> wide by 9' high.  This is approved by their international corporate safety
>> department.
>> 
>> This will be a deluge system for two dock doors.
>> 
>> How are you going to calculate this?
>> 
>> 
>> Craig L. Prahl
>> Fire Protection Group Lead/SME
>> CH2M
>> 200 Verdae Blvd.
>> Greenville, SC  29607
>> Direct - 864.920.7540
>> Fax - 864.920.7129
>> CH2MHILL Extension  77540
>> craig.pr...@ch2m.com
>> 
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>> 
>>  
>> --
>> Ron Greenman
>> 
>> 4110 Olson Dr., NW
>> Gig Harbor, WA 98335
>> 
>> rongreen...@gmail.com
>> 
>> 253.576.9700
>>  
>> The Universe is monstrously indifferent to the presence of man. -Werner 
>> Herzog, screenwriter, film director, author, actor and opera director (1942-)
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