Just a heads up, the latest edition of NFPA 72 specifically prohibits the
use of duct detectors for alarm signal activation, they are relegated to
trouble or supervisory signals only (forget which one).  If you're not
going to use a duct detector to evacuate a building, why in the heck would
you even want to think about using it to trip a pre-action system?


Benjamin Young

On Tue, Sep 20, 2016 at 12:44 PM, <craig.pr...@ch2m.com> wrote:

> So per NFPA 101, the detector could be in the exhaust (return) duct.
>
>
>
> 23.11.7 just says one or more installed per Chapter 17.
>
>
>
> 17.7.4.3 Says not to substitute but this is usually a matter where the
> Code or Standard specifically states a requirement of a certain type based
> on application.  Is there anything stating that for a suppression system
> that is must use spot type area detection?  That’s the key.
>
>
>
>
> *Craig L. Prahl*
> Fire Protection Group Lead/SME
> *CH2M*
> 200 Verdae Blvd.
> Greenville, SC  29607
> Direct - 864.920.7540
>
> Fax - 864.920.7129
>
> CH2MHILL Extension  77540
> craig.pr...@ch2m.com
>
>
>
> *From:* Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-bounces@lists.firesprinkler.
> org] *On Behalf Of *michael G
> *Sent:* Tuesday, September 20, 2016 12:05 PM
>
> *To:* sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
> *Subject:* RE: Pre-action detection [EXTERNAL]
>
>
>
> Codes as follows:
>
>
>
> NFPA 72 (2013) Chapter 23 Section 11 (Suppression System Actuation)
>
> *23.11.7* *Each space protected by an automatic fire suppression
>
> system actuated by the fire alarm system shall contain one
>
> or more automatic fire detectors installed in accordance with
>
> Chapter 17.
>
> *23.11.8 *Suppression systems or groups of systems shall be
>
> controlled by a single releasing service fire alarm control unit
>
> that monitors the associated initiating device(s), actuates the
>
> associated releasing device(s), and controls the associated
>
> agent release notification appliances.
>
> *23.11.9 *If the configuration of multiple control units is listed
>
> for releasing device service, and if a trouble condition or
>
> manual disconnect on either control unit causes a trouble or
>
> supervisory signal, the initiating device on one control unit
>
> shall be permitted to actuate releasing devices on another
>
> control unit in lieu of 23.11.8.
>
> NFPA 72 (2013) Chapter 17 Section 7 (Smoke-Sensing Fire Detectors)
>
> *17.7.4.3* *Detectors placed in environmental air ducts or plenums
>
> shall not be used as a substitute for open area detectors.
>
> Where detectors are used for the control of smoke spread, the
>
> requirements of 17.7.5 shall apply. Where open area protection
>
> is required, 17.7.3 shall apply.
>
>
>
> NFPA 101
>
> *22.3.4.4.2.2 *Detectors shall be permitted to be located in exhaust
>
> ducts from cells, behind grilles, or in other locations.
>
>
>
> *22.3.4.4.2.3 *The equivalent performance of the design permitted
>
> by 22.3.4.4.2.2 shall be acceptable to the authority having
>
> jurisdiction in accordance with the equivalency concepts
>
> specified in Section 1.4.
>
>
>
> I believe it's pretty clear, but then again, maybe not.
>
>
>
>
>
> *Michael Goodis     *
>
> *Estimator, Project Manager*
>
> *IL#000635   NICET#135586*
>
> *Key Fire Protection Enterprises LLC*
>
> *3200 Mike Padgett HWY*
>
> *Augusta, GA 30906*
>
> *Office- (706)790-3473 <%28706%29790-3473>*
>
> *Cell- (706) 220-8822 <%28706%29%20220-8822>*
>
> *Fax: (706) 738-2119 <%28706%29%20738-2119>*
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-bounces@lists.firesprinkler.
> org <sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org>] *On Behalf Of *
> craig.pr...@ch2m.com
> *Sent:* Tuesday, September 20, 2016 11:43 AM
> *To:* sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
> *Subject:* RE: Pre-action detection
>
>
>
> Define “Area Coverage”.  The duct detector covers or senses within the
> same AREA the air handling system serves.
>
>
>
> Does it say in either NFPA 13 or NFPA 72 that a detector has to be listed
> “FOR AREA PROTECTION”?  Actually a detector isn’t really protecting
> anything, just sensing and alarming.
>
>
>
>
> *Craig L. Prahl*
> Fire Protection Group Lead/SME
> *CH2M*
> 200 Verdae Blvd.
> Greenville, SC  29607
> Direct - 864.920.7540
>
> Fax - 864.920.7129
>
> CH2MHILL Extension  77540
> craig.pr...@ch2m.com
>
>
>
> *From:* Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-bounces@lists.firesprinkler.
> org <sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org>] *On Behalf Of *michael
> G
> *Sent:* Tuesday, September 20, 2016 11:16 AM
> *To:* sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
> *Subject:* RE: Pre-action detection [EXTERNAL]
>
>
>
> Bruce,
>
>
>
> They don’t make a Duct detector that is listed for area of protection.
> Also our other major concern.
>
>
>
>
>
> *Michael Goodis     *
>
> *Estimator, Project Manager*
>
> *IL#000635   NICET#135586*
>
> *Key Fire Protection Enterprises LLC*
>
> *3200 Mike Padgett HWY*
>
> *Augusta, GA 30906*
>
> *Office- (706)790-3473 <%28706%29790-3473>*
>
> *Cell- (706) 220-8822 <%28706%29%20220-8822>*
>
> *Fax: (706) 738-2119 <%28706%29%20738-2119>*
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-bounces@lists.firesprinkler.
> org <sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org>] *On Behalf Of *Bruce
> Verhei
> *Sent:* Tuesday, September 20, 2016 11:01 AM
> *To:* sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
> *Subject:* Re: Pre-action detection
>
>
>
> Guess I'll be the angel's advocate. Is the duct detector listed for area
> coverage?
>
>
>
> That said, I think (51%) that a detector in the exhaust from each
> one-person cell was used as the detection for such a system in Kent WA. I
> was not the plan reviewer for this project so I am not sure.
>
>
>
> Operator is King Co. Constructed as King County Regional Justice Center,
> renamed Norm Maleng Regional Justice Center. I don't have a current contact.
>
>
>
> Best
>
>
>
> Bruce Verhei
>
>
> On Sep 20, 2016, at 07:04, <craig.pr...@ch2m.com> <craig.pr...@ch2m.com>
> wrote:
>
> Playing devil’s advocate here for a minute, how does the duct detector
> differ from a room detector with regards to its listing for this
> application?
>
>
>
> How does a duct detector sensing room smoke conditions differ from a VESDA
> system which samples air from a room?
>
>
>
> Does the HVAC unit serve only the same area as the preaction system
> covers?
>
>
>
> Is there specific verbiage cited within NFPA 13 or NFPA 72 which does not
> allow the use of an HVAC return air smoke detector as an initiating device
> for a preaction system?
>
>
>
>
> *Craig L. Prahl*
> Fire Protection Group Lead/SME
> *CH2M*
> 200 Verdae Blvd.
> Greenville, SC  29607
> Direct - 864.920.7540
>
> Fax - 864.920.7129
>
> CH2MHILL Extension  77540
> craig.pr...@ch2m.com
>
>
>
> *From:* Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-bounces@lists.firesprinkler.
> org <sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org>] *On Behalf Of *Gregg
> Key
> *Sent:* Tuesday, September 20, 2016 9:28 AM
> *To:* sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
> *Subject:* Pre-action detection [EXTERNAL]
>
>
>
> Greetings,
>
>
>
>                               First of all, what a great convention. Good
> speakers and fellowship. Nashville was awesome as well. I am in serious
> need of some technical assistance. I have posted this a few times with some
> response but this has become a three ring circus between the architect
> ,fire marshal and us . The Architect specified a double interlock
> pre-action system with the detection being provided with a duct detector in
> the return duct at the unit. We have refused to certify the system due the
> fact that the detector not being listed for this application. State is
> asking me to hang a partial certification ( yellow tag) . has anyone else
> dealt with this detection being used for a pre-action system in a detention
> center?   Any help would be appreciated
>
>
>
> Gregg Key
>
> General Manager
>
> Key Fire Protection Enterprises,LLC
>
> 3200 Mike Padgett Hwy
>
> Augusta GA, 30906
>
> O-706-790-3473
>
> C- 706-220-8821
>
> F- 706-738-2119
>
> gr...@keyfps.com
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Sprinklerforum mailing list
> Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.
> org
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> [image: Avast logo] <https://www.avast.com/antivirus>
>
> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
> www.avast.com <https://www.avast.com/antivirus>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> [image: Avast logo] <https://www.avast.com/antivirus>
>
> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
> www.avast.com <https://www.avast.com/antivirus>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Sprinklerforum mailing list
> Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.
> org
>
>
_______________________________________________
Sprinklerforum mailing list
Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org

Reply via email to