See 907.2.6.3.3, Exception 1.  A single duct mounted detector is permissible 
per Code when approved.



IFC 2012 I-3 Occupancy requirements

907.2.6.3 Group I-3 occupancies. Group I-3 occupancies shall be equipped with a 
manual fire alarm system and automatic smoke detection system installed for 
alerting staff.
907.2.6.3.1 System initiation. Actuation of an automatic fire-extinguishing 
system, automatic sprinkler system, a manual fire alarm box or a fire detector 
shall initiate an approved fire alarm signal which automatically notifies staff.


907.2.6.3.3 Automatic smoke detection system.
An automatic smoke detection system shall be installed throughout resident 
housing areas, including sleeping units and contiguous day rooms, group 
activity spaces and other common spaces normally accessible to residents.
Exceptions:
1. Other approved smoke detection arrangements providing equivalent protection, 
including, but not limited to, placing detectors in exhaust ducts from cells or 
behind
protective guards listed for the purpose, are allowed when necessary to prevent 
damage or tampering.
2. Sleeping units in Use Conditions 2 and 3 as described in Section 308 of the 
International Building Code.
3. Smoke detectors are not required in sleeping units with four or fewer 
occupants in smoke compartments that are equipped throughout with an automatic 
sprinkler system
installed in accordance with Section 903.3.1.1.

Craig L. Prahl
Fire Protection Group Lead/SME
CH2M
200 Verdae Blvd.
Greenville, SC  29607
Direct - 864.920.7540
Fax - 864.920.7129
CH2MHILL Extension  77540
craig.pr...@ch2m.com


From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On 
Behalf Of Ben Young
Sent: Tuesday, September 20, 2016 1:00 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: Re: Pre-action detection [EXTERNAL]

Just a heads up, the latest edition of NFPA 72 specifically prohibits the use 
of duct detectors for alarm signal activation, they are relegated to trouble or 
supervisory signals only (forget which one).  If you're not going to use a duct 
detector to evacuate a building, why in the heck would you even want to think 
about using it to trip a pre-action system?


Benjamin Young

On Tue, Sep 20, 2016 at 12:44 PM, 
<craig.pr...@ch2m.com<mailto:craig.pr...@ch2m.com>> wrote:
So per NFPA 101, the detector could be in the exhaust (return) duct.

23.11.7 just says one or more installed per Chapter 17.

17.7.4.3 Says not to substitute but this is usually a matter where the Code or 
Standard specifically states a requirement of a certain type based on 
application.  Is there anything stating that for a suppression system that is 
must use spot type area detection?  That’s the key.


Craig L. Prahl
Fire Protection Group Lead/SME
CH2M
200 Verdae Blvd.
Greenville, SC  29607
Direct - 864.920.7540<tel:864.920.7540>
Fax - 864.920.7129<tel:864.920.7129>
CH2MHILL Extension  77540
craig.pr...@ch2m.com<mailto:craig.pr...@ch2m.com>

From: Sprinklerforum 
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org>]
 On Behalf Of michael G
Sent: Tuesday, September 20, 2016 12:05 PM

To: 
sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>
Subject: RE: Pre-action detection [EXTERNAL]

Codes as follows:

NFPA 72 (2013) Chapter 23 Section 11 (Suppression System Actuation)
23.11.7* Each space protected by an automatic fire suppression
system actuated by the fire alarm system shall contain one
or more automatic fire detectors installed in accordance with
Chapter 17.
23.11.8 Suppression systems or groups of systems shall be
controlled by a single releasing service fire alarm control unit
that monitors the associated initiating device(s), actuates the
associated releasing device(s), and controls the associated
agent release notification appliances.
23.11.9 If the configuration of multiple control units is listed
for releasing device service, and if a trouble condition or
manual disconnect on either control unit causes a trouble or
supervisory signal, the initiating device on one control unit
shall be permitted to actuate releasing devices on another
control unit in lieu of 23.11.8.
NFPA 72 (2013) Chapter 17 Section 7 (Smoke-Sensing Fire Detectors)
17.7.4.3* Detectors placed in environmental air ducts or plenums
shall not be used as a substitute for open area detectors.
Where detectors are used for the control of smoke spread, the
requirements of 17.7.5 shall apply. Where open area protection
is required, 17.7.3 shall apply.

NFPA 101
22.3.4.4.2.2 Detectors shall be permitted to be located in exhaust
ducts from cells, behind grilles, or in other locations.

22.3.4.4.2.3 The equivalent performance of the design permitted
by 22.3.4.4.2.2 shall be acceptable to the authority having
jurisdiction in accordance with the equivalency concepts
specified in Section 1.4.

I believe it's pretty clear, but then again, maybe not.


Michael Goodis
Estimator, Project Manager
IL#000635   NICET#135586
Key Fire Protection Enterprises LLC
3200 Mike Padgett HWY
Augusta, GA 30906
Office- (706)790-3473<tel:%28706%29790-3473>
Cell- (706) 220-8822<tel:%28706%29%20220-8822>
Fax: (706) 738-2119<tel:%28706%29%20738-2119>




From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On 
Behalf Of craig.pr...@ch2m.com<mailto:craig.pr...@ch2m.com>
Sent: Tuesday, September 20, 2016 11:43 AM
To: 
sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>
Subject: RE: Pre-action detection

Define “Area Coverage”.  The duct detector covers or senses within the same 
AREA the air handling system serves.

Does it say in either NFPA 13 or NFPA 72 that a detector has to be listed “FOR 
AREA PROTECTION”?  Actually a detector isn’t really protecting anything, just 
sensing and alarming.


Craig L. Prahl
Fire Protection Group Lead/SME
CH2M
200 Verdae Blvd.
Greenville, SC  29607
Direct - 864.920.7540<tel:864.920.7540>
Fax - 864.920.7129<tel:864.920.7129>
CH2MHILL Extension  77540
craig.pr...@ch2m.com<mailto:craig.pr...@ch2m.com>

From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On 
Behalf Of michael G
Sent: Tuesday, September 20, 2016 11:16 AM
To: 
sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>
Subject: RE: Pre-action detection [EXTERNAL]

Bruce,

They don’t make a Duct detector that is listed for area of protection.   Also 
our other major concern.


Michael Goodis
Estimator, Project Manager
IL#000635   NICET#135586
Key Fire Protection Enterprises LLC
3200 Mike Padgett HWY
Augusta, GA 30906
Office- (706)790-3473<tel:%28706%29790-3473>
Cell- (706) 220-8822<tel:%28706%29%20220-8822>
Fax: (706) 738-2119<tel:%28706%29%20738-2119>


From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On 
Behalf Of Bruce Verhei
Sent: Tuesday, September 20, 2016 11:01 AM
To: 
sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>
Subject: Re: Pre-action detection

Guess I'll be the angel's advocate. Is the duct detector listed for area 
coverage?

That said, I think (51%) that a detector in the exhaust from each one-person 
cell was used as the detection for such a system in Kent WA. I was not the plan 
reviewer for this project so I am not sure.

Operator is King Co. Constructed as King County Regional Justice Center, 
renamed Norm Maleng Regional Justice Center. I don't have a current contact.

Best

Bruce Verhei

On Sep 20, 2016, at 07:04, <craig.pr...@ch2m.com<mailto:craig.pr...@ch2m.com>> 
<craig.pr...@ch2m.com<mailto:craig.pr...@ch2m.com>> wrote:
Playing devil’s advocate here for a minute, how does the duct detector differ 
from a room detector with regards to its listing for this application?

How does a duct detector sensing room smoke conditions differ from a VESDA 
system which samples air from a room?

Does the HVAC unit serve only the same area as the preaction system covers?

Is there specific verbiage cited within NFPA 13 or NFPA 72 which does not allow 
the use of an HVAC return air smoke detector as an initiating device for a 
preaction system?


Craig L. Prahl
Fire Protection Group Lead/SME
CH2M
200 Verdae Blvd.
Greenville, SC  29607
Direct - 864.920.7540<tel:864.920.7540>
Fax - 864.920.7129<tel:864.920.7129>
CH2MHILL Extension  77540
craig.pr...@ch2m.com<mailto:craig.pr...@ch2m.com>

From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On 
Behalf Of Gregg Key
Sent: Tuesday, September 20, 2016 9:28 AM
To: 
sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>
Subject: Pre-action detection [EXTERNAL]

Greetings,

                              First of all, what a great convention. Good 
speakers and fellowship. Nashville was awesome as well. I am in serious need of 
some technical assistance. I have posted this a few times with some response 
but this has become a three ring circus between the architect ,fire marshal and 
us . The Architect specified a double interlock pre-action system with the 
detection being provided with a duct detector in the return duct at the unit. 
We have refused to certify the system due the fact that the detector not being 
listed for this application. State is asking me to hang a partial certification 
( yellow tag) . has anyone else dealt with this detection being used for a 
pre-action system in a detention center?   Any help would be appreciated

Gregg Key
General Manager
Key Fire Protection Enterprises,LLC
3200 Mike Padgett Hwy
Augusta GA, 30906
O-706-790-3473<tel:706-790-3473>
C- 706-220-8821<tel:706-220-8821>
F- 706-738-2119<tel:706-738-2119>
gr...@keyfps.com<mailto:gr...@keyfps.com>


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