Do it exactly like the owner wants - with no pads -but in protest - and make him sign a letter that states that you recommended the housekeeping/maintenance pads - and he declined them.
This is an accepted engineering practice. This is how we protect the electric motor equipment. Good luck. Rob Henderson RWP Engineering 31 W. Congress St., Suite 305 Savannah, Georgia 31401 Phone: (912) 231-9212 -----Original Message----- From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of [email protected] Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2017 9:41 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Sprinklerforum Digest, Vol 51, Issue 9 Send Sprinklerforum mailing list submissions to [email protected] To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to [email protected] You can reach the person managing the list at [email protected] When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Sprinklerforum digest..." Today's Topics: 1. RE: Pre-action detection options ([email protected]) 2. Pump pads (John Irwin) 3. RE: Pre-action detection options (Steele, Andrew) 4. RE: Pump pads (Mitchell, Scott) 5. RE: Pump pads (Ed.Tambini) 6. RE: Pump pads (Art Tiroly) 7. RE: Pre-action detection options ([email protected]) 8. Re: Pre-action detection options (Charles Thurston) 9. Re: Pre-action detection options (Bruce Verhei) 10. RE: Pump pads (Dewayne Martinez) 11. RE: Pump pads (Tom Duross) 12. RE: Pump pads (Matthew J Willis) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2017 12:01:54 -0400 From: [email protected] To: Sprinklerforum <[email protected]> Subject: RE: Pre-action detection options Message-ID: <9eb5a2fa-08cd-450f-a06b-1a16949ae4fd@Todds-iPad> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Possibly, but would be a difficult and expensive install. Todd G Williams, PE Fire Protection Design/Consulting Stonington, CT 860-535-2080 (tel:860-535-2080) (ofc) 860-553-3553 (tel:860-553-3553) (fax) 860-608-4559 (tel:860-608-4559) (cell) > > On Jun 12, 2017 at 11:46 AM, <Matt Grise (mailto:[email protected])> wrote: > > > > > > How about pilot line detectors with high-temp heads? > > > > > > > > > Matt > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From: Sprinklerforum > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of > [email protected] > Sent: Monday, June 12, 2017 10:45 AM > To: Sprinklerforum > Subject: RE: Pre-action detection options > > > > > > > > > > > > High temps causing device to fail. > > > > > > Todd G Williams, PE > > > > > Fire Protection Design/Consulting > > > > > > Stonington, CT > > > > > > 860-535-2080 (tel:860-535-2080) (ofc) > > > > > > 860-553-3553 (tel:860-553-3553) (fax) > > > > > > 860-608-4559 (tel:860-608-4559) (cell) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Jun 12, 2017 at 11:39 AM, <Matt Grise (mailto:[email protected])> wrote: > > > > > > Are the devices activating because they sense a fire or because the high > temperatures cause the devices to fail? > > > > > > > > > Matt > > > > > > > > > > > From: Sprinklerforum > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of > [email protected] (mailto:[email protected]) > Sent: Monday, June 12, 2017 10:34 AM > To: Sprinkler Forum > Subject: Pre-action detection options > > > > > > > > > > > > I am working on a facility with a pre-action system in an industrial facility > with ambient ceiling temperatures in excess of 200 degreesF. They have had a > problem with accidental activations, mostly due to the (electronic) detection > system. Is there a good resource for various options for detection? The > standard ones are proving problematic. > > > > > > Todd G Williams, PE > > > > > Fire Protection Design/Consulting > > > > > > Stonington, CT > > > > > > 860-535-2080 (tel:860-535-2080) (ofc) > > > > > > 860-553-3553 (tel:860-553-3553) (fax) > > > > > > 860-608-4559 (tel:860-608-4559) (cell) > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > (mailto:[email protected]) > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org > > > > > > _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum > mailing list [email protected] > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkl > er.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://lists.firesprinkler.org/private.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org/attachments/20170612/318677c9/attachment-0001.htm> ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2017 12:11:20 -0400 From: John Irwin <[email protected]> To: "[email protected]" <[email protected]> Subject: Pump pads Message-ID: <27a77db350d79043a37f2af8581140e301aeee46a...@criticalsbs.css.local> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" We have a client who wants us to install our pumps directly to the floor with no maintenance pads. We can't find a requirement in 20 that says we must have pads. What say you? John Irwin Division Manager - Fire Sprinklers Critical System Solutions [email protected] 813-618-2781 Sent from a mobile device. Please forgive brevity, spelling errors and punctuation gaffes. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://lists.firesprinkler.org/private.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org/attachments/20170612/7bdc0f41/attachment-0001.htm> ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2017 16:16:18 +0000 From: "Steele, Andrew" <[email protected]> To: "'[email protected]'" <[email protected]> Subject: RE: Pre-action detection options Message-ID: <[email protected]> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Assuming that there is no open flame, reflected flame, or smoke associated with the high ceiling heat conditions, then a camera detection system, positioned in the building to be environmentally protected ? but still with a clear view, might work. Fike Signifire is one. Curious as to your outcome, if you would be willing to share at some point. Andrew Steele Fire Marshal, Dayton. From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of [email protected] Sent: Monday, June 12, 2017 11:34 AM To: Sprinkler Forum Subject: Pre-action detection options I am working on a facility with a pre-action system in an industrial facility with ambient ceiling temperatures in excess of 200 degreesF. They have had a problem with accidental activations, mostly due to the (electronic) detection system. Is there a good resource for various options for detection? The standard ones are proving problematic. Todd G Williams, PE Fire Protection Design/Consulting Stonington, CT 860-535-2080<tel:860-535-2080> (ofc) 860-553-3553<tel:860-553-3553> (fax) 860-608-4559<tel:860-608-4559> (cell) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://lists.firesprinkler.org/private.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org/attachments/20170612/8d705479/attachment-0001.htm> ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2017 16:24:47 +0000 From: "Mitchell, Scott" <[email protected]> To: "[email protected]" <[email protected]> Subject: RE: Pump pads Message-ID: <[email protected]> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" NFPA 20 does not explicitly require a pad. However, proper alignment of the pump, driver, suction/discharge piping and requirements of 6.4 may implicitly require a pad. J. Scott Mitchell, PE Senior Fire Protection Engineer Mission Engineering CNS Y-12 | 865-576-5258 CNS PTX | 806-477-5883 From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of John Irwin Sent: Monday, June 12, 2017 12:11 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Pump pads We have a client who wants us to install our pumps directly to the floor with no maintenance pads. We can't find a requirement in 20 that says we must have pads. What say you? John Irwin Division Manager - Fire Sprinklers Critical System Solutions [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> 813-618-2781 Sent from a mobile device. Please forgive brevity, spelling errors and punctuation gaffes. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://lists.firesprinkler.org/private.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org/attachments/20170612/e1cdd1d6/attachment-0001.htm> ------------------------------ Message: 5 Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2017 16:26:07 +0000 From: Ed.Tambini <[email protected]> To: "[email protected]" <[email protected]> Subject: RE: Pump pads Message-ID: <cy4p126mb0005c77fcf66abdaa9484a60a5...@cy4p126mb0005.namp126.prod.outlook.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Isn?t there something that says the motor must be at least 12? off the floor? From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Mitchell, Scott Sent: Monday, June 12, 2017 9:25 AM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: Pump pads NFPA 20 does not explicitly require a pad. However, proper alignment of the pump, driver, suction/discharge piping and requirements of 6.4 may implicitly require a pad. J. Scott Mitchell, PE Senior Fire Protection Engineer Mission Engineering CNS Y-12 | 865-576-5258 CNS PTX | 806-477-5883 From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:[email protected]]<mailto:[mailto:[email protected]]> On Behalf Of John Irwin Sent: Monday, June 12, 2017 12:11 PM To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> Subject: Pump pads We have a client who wants us to install our pumps directly to the floor with no maintenance pads. We can't find a requirement in 20 that says we must have pads. What say you? John Irwin Division Manager - Fire Sprinklers Critical System Solutions [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> 813-618-2781 Sent from a mobile device. Please forgive brevity, spelling errors and punctuation gaffes. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://lists.firesprinkler.org/private.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org/attachments/20170612/071d6400/attachment-0001.htm> ------------------------------ Message: 6 Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2017 12:36:36 -0400 From: "Art Tiroly" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Subject: RE: Pump pads Message-ID: <[email protected]> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" I saw it done some years ago by pipe fitters and it made me laugh. The fittings were below the concrete floor so they gouged to floor for the flanges. If you need to go back underground the ell won?t fit at the floor. Art Tiroly ATCO Fire Protection/Tiroly 24400 Highland Rd CLE 44143 216-621-8899 216-570-7030 cell From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of John Irwin Sent: Monday, June 12, 2017 12:11 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Pump pads We have a client who wants us to install our pumps directly to the floor with no maintenance pads. We can't find a requirement in 20 that says we must have pads. What say you? John Irwin Division Manager - Fire Sprinklers Critical System Solutions [email protected] 813-618-2781 Sent from a mobile device. Please forgive brevity, spelling errors and punctuation gaffes. --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://lists.firesprinkler.org/private.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org/attachments/20170612/73e8039b/attachment-0001.htm> ------------------------------ Message: 7 Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2017 12:38:39 -0400 From: [email protected] To: Sprinklerforum <[email protected]> Subject: RE: Pre-action detection options Message-ID: <6466455a-943c-48c0-adf8-d72e44d1d44d@Todds-iPhone> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" This is a co-generation facility and this is heat off the equipment. No flames. I was thinking camera or beam but I haven't worked with either before Todd G Williams, PE Fire Protection Design/Consulting Stonington, CT 860-535-2080 (ofc) 860-553-3553 (fax) 860-608-4559 (cell) > > On Jun 12, 2017 at 12:16 PM, <Andrew Steele > (mailto:[email protected])> wrote: > > > > > > Assuming that there is no open flame, reflected flame, or smoke associated > with the high ceiling heat conditions, then a camera detection system, > positioned in the building to be environmentally protected ? but still with a > clear view, might work. Fike Signifire is one. > > > > > > > > Curious as to your outcome, if you would be willing to share at some point. > > > > > > > > Andrew Steele > > > > Fire Marshal, Dayton. > > > > > > > > > > From: Sprinklerforum > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of > [email protected] > Sent: Monday, June 12, 2017 11:34 AM > To: Sprinkler Forum > Subject: Pre-action detection options > > > > > > > > > > > > I am working on a facility with a pre-action system in an industrial facility > with ambient ceiling temperatures in excess of 200 degreesF. They have had a > problem with accidental activations, mostly due to the (electronic) detection > system. Is there a good resource for various options for detection? The > standard ones are proving problematic. > > > > > > Todd G Williams, PE > > > > > Fire Protection Design/Consulting > > > > > > Stonington, CT > > > > > > 860-535-2080 (tel:860-535-2080) (ofc) > > > > > > 860-553-3553 (tel:860-553-3553) (fax) > > > > > > 860-608-4559 (tel:860-608-4559) (cell) > > > > > > > > > > > > > Web (http://www.daytonohio.gov/) | Twitter > (http://twitter.com/cityofdayton) | Facebook > (http://www.facebook.com/pages/Dayton-OH/City-of-Dayton-Ohio/47806554955) > | YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/cityofdaytonohio) | Nixle > (http://www.nixle.com/) | E-mail Newsletters > (http://visitor.constantcontact.com/d.jsp?m=1101627103042&p=oi) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ?? _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum > mailing list [email protected] > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://lists.firesprinkler.org/private.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org/attachments/20170612/7824c511/attachment-0001.htm> ------------------------------ Message: 8 Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2017 13:24:53 -0400 From: Charles Thurston <[email protected]> To: [email protected], [email protected] Subject: Re: Pre-action detection options Message-ID: <[email protected]> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Hello Fpdcdesign, Look at http://www.protectowire.com/ They have a couple of lines of the cable listed to be installed in ambient temperatures of 200 degrees. EPC and XLR lines of cable. I have not used it but have worked with a little of it. Monday, June 12, 2017, 11:34:00 AM, you wrote: I am working on a facility with a pre-action system in an industrial facility with ambient ceiling temperatures in excess of 200 degreesF. They have had a problem with accidental activations, mostly due to the (electronic) detection system. Is there a good resource for various options for detection? The standard ones are proving problematic. Todd G Williams, PE Fire Protection Design/Consulting Stonington, CT 860-535-2080 (ofc) 860-553-3553 (fax) 860-608-4559 (cell) -- Best regards, Charles Thurston [email protected] MYRTLE BEACH FIRE SAFETY GROUP A Division of Pye-Barker Fire Safety 1445 Cannon Road Myrtle Beach, SC 29577 (843) 916 - 8787 (843) 839 - 3473 facsimile -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://lists.firesprinkler.org/private.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org/attachments/20170612/f932ff8a/attachment-0001.htm> -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/jpeg Size: 28682 bytes Desc: not available URL: <http://lists.firesprinkler.org/private.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org/attachments/20170612/f932ff8a/attachment-0001.jpeg> ------------------------------ Message: 9 Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2017 12:38:31 -0700 From: Bruce Verhei <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Subject: Re: Pre-action detection options Message-ID: <[email protected]> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Todd To my knowledge the beam detectors available are not designed to be located in this high an ambient temperature. Would the manufacturer allow them to operate through some type of glass, and be located outside the heat? (Most techs are not really competent to install beam detectors. Most miss that instead of hit and miss aiming, the detectors have jacks on the front. Use a DC voltmeter, adjust for highest voltage, and voila, best aimed. It's amazing what those engineers put in the instruction docs!) Protectowire is a quite stable product line. Again in a high temp area one needs to look at all the details, down to correct connections. Remote from panel? Some designers miss that once out of hazard area you can transition to a normal, conventional cable for run to panel. For small areas you do not even need a Protectowire panel. Protectowire is manufactured intentionally with a higher ohms/lf than normal cable. You can use it as long as you stay below the ohms allowed on a normal FACP's detection circuits. Common is 100 ohms. Applying a safety factor a length of Protectowire with 80 ohms on a detection circuit is commonly used by the knowledgeable AFA designer. 80 ohms/0.185 ohms/lf = a typical length of detection wire acceptable on a releasing detection circuit. I might encourage you to look at who would inspect final install regardless of panel used. Specification, design and install are not rocket science. But they do require following the manual, and to use all the connecting parts required. And they are all more expensive than normal in the van parts. And FM of course has discussion of linear heat detection cable for releasing service. Best Bruce Verhei Sent from my iPhone > On Jun 12, 2017, at 08:34, [email protected] wrote: > > I am working on a facility with a pre-action system in an industrial facility > with ambient ceiling temperatures in excess of 200 degreesF. They have had a > problem with accidental activations, mostly due to the (electronic) detection > system. Is there a good resource for various options for detection? The > standard ones are proving problematic. > > Todd G Williams, PE > Fire Protection Design/Consulting > Stonington, CT > 860-535-2080 (ofc) > 860-553-3553 (fax) > 860-608-4559 (cell) > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkl > er.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://lists.firesprinkler.org/private.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org/attachments/20170612/82685ae0/attachment-0001.htm> ------------------------------ Message: 10 Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2017 16:03:41 -0500 From: Dewayne Martinez <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Cc: [email protected] Subject: RE: Pump pads Message-ID: <[email protected]> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" I was taught it was a requirement of the pump manufactures for horizontal split case pumps. *From:* Sprinklerforum [mailto: [email protected]] *On Behalf Of *John Irwin *Sent:* Monday, June 12, 2017 11:11 AM *To:* [email protected] *Subject:* Pump pads We have a client who wants us to install our pumps directly to the floor with no maintenance pads. We can't find a requirement in 20 that says we must have pads. What say you? John Irwin Division Manager - Fire Sprinklers Critical System Solutions [email protected] 813-618-2781 Sent from a mobile device. Please forgive brevity, spelling errors and punctuation gaffes. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://lists.firesprinkler.org/private.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org/attachments/20170612/97d1eac5/attachment-0001.htm> ------------------------------ Message: 11 Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2017 20:05:41 -0400 From: "Tom Duross" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Subject: RE: Pump pads Message-ID: <[email protected]> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" A peeve of mine. Pads are a building code item taken out of chapter 9 and #20 because many manufacturers are different. Rule of thumb. Pad is required, grouting dependent upon manufacturers base design. Pad (and grout) should assume 3x the mass (weight) of driving equipment and extend a minimum of 6? beyond doweled anchors on all sides. From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Dewayne Martinez Sent: Monday, June 12, 2017 5:04 PM To: [email protected] Cc: [email protected] Subject: RE: Pump pads I was taught it was a requirement of the pump manufactures for horizontal split case pumps. From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> ] On Behalf Of John Irwin Sent: Monday, June 12, 2017 11:11 AM To: [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> Subject: Pump pads We have a client who wants us to install our pumps directly to the floor with no maintenance pads. We can't find a requirement in 20 that says we must have pads. What say you? John Irwin Division Manager - Fire Sprinklers Critical System Solutions [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> 813-618-2781 Sent from a mobile device. Please forgive brevity, spelling errors and punctuation gaffes. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://lists.firesprinkler.org/private.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org/attachments/20170612/9026e1cf/attachment-0001.htm> ------------------------------ Message: 12 Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2017 13:40:51 +0000 From: Matthew J Willis <[email protected]> To: "[email protected]" <[email protected]> Subject: RE: Pump pads Message-ID: <cy1pr19mb02048cbe7cd21c84b2fd7f06dc...@cy1pr19mb0204.namprd19.prod.outlook.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Playing DA, (Not district Attorney), If taken out of the mandating books, how do we make the ?other guy? do what we know is correct. R/ Matt Matthew J. Willis Project Manager Rapid Fire Protection Inc.<http://rapidfireinc.com/> 1530 Samco Road Rapid City, SD 57702 Office-605.348.2342 Direct Line-605.593.5063 Cell-605.391.2733 Fax:-605.348.0108 [cid:[email protected]] From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Tom Duross Sent: Monday, June 12, 2017 6:06 PM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: Pump pads A peeve of mine. Pads are a building code item taken out of chapter 9 and #20 because many manufacturers are different. Rule of thumb. Pad is required, grouting dependent upon manufacturers base design. Pad (and grout) should assume 3x the mass (weight) of driving equipment and extend a minimum of 6? beyond doweled anchors on all sides. From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Dewayne Martinez Sent: Monday, June 12, 2017 5:04 PM To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> Cc: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> Subject: RE: Pump pads I was taught it was a requirement of the pump manufactures for horizontal split case pumps. From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>] On Behalf Of John Irwin Sent: Monday, June 12, 2017 11:11 AM To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> Subject: Pump pads We have a client who wants us to install our pumps directly to the floor with no maintenance pads. We can't find a requirement in 20 that says we must have pads. What say you? John Irwin Division Manager - Fire Sprinklers Critical System Solutions [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> 813-618-2781 Sent from a mobile device. Please forgive brevity, spelling errors and punctuation gaffes. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://lists.firesprinkler.org/private.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org/attachments/20170613/013c91cc/attachment.htm> -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... 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