One  of the issues considered for sprinklers or not is in the egress and 
exiting. In a freestanding building with no exterior walls, egress and 
especially exiting is not an issue and many jurisdictions specifically do not 
require sprinklers for this reason. Could this be the answer? What say y'all.

Mark at Aero
602 820-7894

Sent from my iPhone

On Apr 13, 2018, at 7:18 PM, John Irwin 
<john.ir...@dynafire.com<mailto:john.ir...@dynafire.com>> wrote:

I spend nearly as much time in the Florida Building Code as I do NFPA 13.

So riddle me this Batman (and I'm not saying you're wrong here) but here in 
Florida plenty of schools have covered play areas that are not attached to any 
building. Many are large enough for a full sized basketball court. Are these 
buildings? They certainly aren't sprinklered.

And let's say for the sake of argument that the area in question is part of the 
building. Isn't a Porte Cochre also part of the building? Typically the 
building code tells us sprinklers yes or sprinklers no. And then NFPA 13 tells 
us how to sprinkler. Clearly NFPA 13 has exceptions for overhangs and exterior 
projections and these exceptions dont appear to have an area limitation.

As a matter of fact, where the Florida Building Code and Florida Fire 
Prevention Code differ from NFPA 13 and call for protection not required by 
NFPA, its clearly spelled out. For many years the requirement for balcony 
sprinklers in combustible construction of 13R buildings was found in the 
building code where it was omitted by 13R.

So I say, if this is considered part of the building and the FBC says protect 
the building per NFPA 13, NFPA 13 still gives me the omission.

John Irwin
DynaFire Inc.
Tampa Fire Sprinkler Division
727-282-9243

This email was sent from a mobile device. Please forgive brevity, typographical 
errors, and grammatical gaffes.
On Apr 13, 2018, at 7:37 PM, Travis Mack 
<tm...@mfpdesign.com<mailto:tm...@mfpdesign.com>> wrote:
As Steve pointed out, it is a building. That gets you to point of sprinklers.

I guess this comes to a point of defining this structure as an exterior 
projection or a building.

I agree with Steve and see it as a building as described.

What I was getting at is we sprinkler people often search NFPA standards for 
all of our answers. However the answer may lie in the code and not the standard.

Travis Mack, SET
MFP Design, LLC
"Follow" us on Facebook: 
https://www.facebook.com/pages/MFP-Design-LLC/92218417692<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.facebook.com_pages_MFP-2DDesign-2DLLC_92218417692&d=DwMFaQ&c=wn3mZQLIuInh2ClcJ0_DIA&r=dLwiR71i_XhSFqam3ZLeaFLiQJ3cDTUB0ReB4-yDDcg&m=ESkgASCkyIIz3USi80sUOPSJF7pLXUxBj2dr_9j8QO0&s=VTtK0pk8ZIg_h00gx2UBbT4IWbpW5axd0php4oia3R8&e=>
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Sent from my iPhone

On Apr 13, 2018, at 4:16 PM, Kyle.Montgomery 
<kmontgom...@aerofire.com<mailto:kmontgom...@aerofire.com>> wrote:

So, Travis, what is the “clear” answer in the building code?


As far as I can tell, it’s still an exterior projection of noncombustible 
construction. Thus, the entire argument hinges on whether or not there will be 
combustibles stored beneath.


I’ll allow for the argument that there could “potentially” be combustible 
storage, but that would be up to an AHJ interpretation.


Assuming you could win the “actual” versus “potential” argument, I say no 
sprinkler protection required if there is no combustible storage.


Show me where the building code says otherwise… and then show me how this area 
is different than other exterior projections where sprinkler may be omitted.


“A.8.15.7 … Exterior projections include, but are not limited to, exterior 
roofs, canopies, porte-cocheres, balconies, decks, or similar projections.”


Is there a definition of “exterior projection” somewhere that limits it to less 
than 2,000 sq. ft.? I can admit that this is a larger area than I would 
normally see this applied to.


-Kyle M


From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On 
Behalf Of Travis Mack
Sent: Friday, April 13, 2018 3:55 PM
To: 
sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: Exterior Play Area


We need a LIKE button for emails. So many times people get lost debating NFPA 
13 criteria when the answer is quite clear in the building code.




Travis Mack, SET
MFP Design, LLC
"Follow" us on Facebook: 
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Sent from my iPhone

On Apr 13, 2018, at 2:11 PM, Steve Leyton 
<st...@protectiondesign.com<mailto:st...@protectiondesign.com>> wrote:
No it ISN'T outside "the" building.  It's attached and by definition it's a 
building and it doesn’t matter if it's open or not.   If a fire starts under 
this structure it could spread to the building it's attached to easily - or are 
you 100% certain that a Boys and Girls Club is going to keep all communicating 
doors closed all the time and facing windows closed?  You're fixating on 
Chapter 8 of the standard but this isn't a sprinkler question.   NFPA 13 
doesn't require sprinklers in buildings, the building code does.  Don't take my 
word for it - go look it up in the IBC.    This is a building.

SML

-----Original Message-----
From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On 
Behalf Of bcasterl...@fsc-inc.com<mailto:bcasterl...@fsc-inc.com>
Sent: Friday, April 13, 2018 2:07 PM
To: 
sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>
Subject: Re: Exterior Play Area

It dosent say those things because it's outside the building Steve.
It's a shade structure, like you meant. Sprinklers would just make a big mess. 
Open on three sides and non-comb means no life safety issue and if that's where 
it starts it won't get inside before the FD gets there. These 12-17 year old 
Boys and Girls probably started it, thinking some Smores sounded good.

Brad


Quoting Steve Leyton 
<st...@protectiondesign.com<mailto:st...@protectiondesign.com>>:


Y'all need to read the definition of "Building" in the Building Code:


"Any structure used or intended for supporting or sheltering any use
or occupancy."


It doesn't mention walls or doors, it doesn't mention construction
type or combustibility of materials.  So the area in question IS a
building.   That by John's description is ATTACHED to another
(sprinklered) building and is used for occupancy by children where
there is a measurable fire load (whether or not it is a profound fire
load, there is one).


So once again, from the top:  NFPA 13 doesn't exclude this area
because it's occupied and has or potentially has combustibles below
it.  The building code defines it as a building.   Why don't we have
to sprinkler it?


Steve






-----Original Message-----
From: Sprinklerforum
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of
bcasterl...@fsc-inc.com<mailto:bcasterl...@fsc-inc.com>
Sent: Friday, April 13, 2018 12:10 PM
To: 
sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>
Subject: Re: Exterior Play Area


I vote no sprinklers required -- open and noncombustible- the
rockinghorse on a spring is like a newspaper machine - there will
always be just one of them- not one today and twelve tomorrow.


Brad.


Quoting Steve Leyton 
<st...@protectiondesign.com<mailto:st...@protectiondesign.com>>:


8.15.7.5.


From: Sprinklerforum
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of
John Irwin
Sent: Friday, April 13, 2018 11:10 AM
To: 
sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>
Subject: RE: Exterior Play Area


I can appreciate your opinion, but I need a code reference.  😉


John Irwin
DynaFire Inc. – “Same Day – Next Day”


From: Sprinklerforum
<sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org><mailto:sprinklerforum
- boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org>>> On 
Behalf Of Steve Leyton
Sent: Friday, April 13, 2018 1:47 PM
To:
sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org><mailto:sprinklerfo...@lists.fi
r
esprinkler.org<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__esprinkler.org&d=DwMFaQ&c=wn3mZQLIuInh2ClcJ0_DIA&r=Z_2A85VL7AQzoqudh6uOyS3bn8etxB7nLN8OBJwQd9A&m=S3a4OvDHGHTwFNMheVs-UuvpwNfxZEkJBMkGkSGIIv0&s=PV0rKpw1zzGSakQTGU-wc5bBKN7PkGKtiLeU1j4QYWE&e=>>
Subject: RE: Exterior Play Area


Assuming there’s play equipment there (fire load) and knowing that
there are kids occupying the space, I wouldn’t call this an
“exterior projection”.   It’s a shad structure with occupancy below
and IMO requires sprinkler protection.


SML


From: Sprinklerforum
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of
John Irwin
Sent: Friday, April 13, 2018 10:42 AM
To:
sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org><mailto:sprinklerfo...@lists.fi
r
esprinkler.org<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__esprinkler.org&d=DwMFaQ&c=wn3mZQLIuInh2ClcJ0_DIA&r=Z_2A85VL7AQzoqudh6uOyS3bn8etxB7nLN8OBJwQd9A&m=S3a4OvDHGHTwFNMheVs-UuvpwNfxZEkJBMkGkSGIIv0&s=PV0rKpw1zzGSakQTGU-wc5bBKN7PkGKtiLeU1j4QYWE&e=>>
Subject: Exterior Play Area


Protecting a light hazard Boys and Girls Club. I excluded an
exterior, but covered, attached and open play area. Non-combustible.
It’s a couple thousand square feet. I excluded using NFPA 13 2013
8.15.7


Client is telling me that he her other fire sprinkler guys telling
him he needs sprinklers in that areas.


What say you?


[cid:image001.png@01D3D318.846AE470]




John Irwin
Fire Sprinkler Specialist
DynaFire, Inc. – “Same Day – Next Day”
727-282-9243 – Cell


“A customer is the most important visitor on our premises. He is not
dependent on us. We are dependent on him. He is not an interruption
on our work. He is the purpose of it. He is not an outsider on our
business. He is a part of it. We are not doing him a favour by
serving him. He is doing us a favour by giving us an opportunity to do so.”






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