Out of this area, but 13-R and insulation used to be a big problem. We ended up with several stamped/wet signature letters from P.E.’s saying solution to some situation a good one. In EVERY case they froze and broke the first winter. Normal was same break and flow occurred in most buildings in a given project.
This does specify a study. We weren’t receiving that. Maybe this is the equivalent of a rational analysis. Freeze protection is the one and only thing that eventually we made it practice that we didn’t allow less than our judgment as to minimum solution. When the damage occurs AHJ gets blamed. We don’t get to leave town and move on to the next job. No one whoever wrote and stamped one of those letters ever said ‘I guess I was wrong’. Best. Bruce Verhei > On Apr 3, 2019, at 04:44, Mike B Morey <[email protected]> wrote: > > You may also want to consider (NFPA 13 2019) 16.4.1.5 - Water-filed piping > shall be permitted to be installed in areas where the temperature is less > than 40F when heat loss calculations performed by a professional engineer > verify that the system will not freeze. This lived in chapter 8 with the > rest of the freezing material previously. To me this is one of those > situations where the earlier wording is somewhat liberal, but this section > tends to make me lean towards a more conservative approach (and assumption of > intent). I agree that the maintenance requirements etc might make it worth > sticking with a wet drop, but getting someone with the initials after their > name to sign off might be difficult on most projects. > > > Mike Morey > CFPS 3229 • NICET S.E.T. 123677 > Project Manager • Fire Protection Group > Shambaugh & Son, LP an EMCOR Company > 7614 Opportunity Drive • Fort Wayne, IN • 46825 > direct 260.487.7824 / cell 260.417.0625 / fax 260.487.7991 > email [email protected] > > <mime-attachment.jpg> > > > > > > From: Kyle.Montgomery <[email protected]> > To: "[email protected]" > <[email protected]> > Date: 04/02/2019 11:45 PM > Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Dry Pendents Required in Coolers? > Sent by: "Sprinklerforum" > <[email protected]> > > > > BE ADVISED - This email originated outside EMCOR. > > Yeah, once you have to decide between buying 400 pendents or 400 dry > pendents, it’s a little easier to find yourself on the unconservative > (non-conservative? Liberal?)... the side that doesn’t want to spend that much > money. > > I know that isn’t a popular opinion around here sometimes, but that’s how it > is. Were trying to do the right thing, but I don’t know that there’s a good > way to justify spending that kind of money just to be on the safe side. > > But that’s why I ask the question, to get some diverse feedback. > > -Kyle M > > On Apr 2, 2019, at 7:58 PM, Travis Mack <[email protected]> wrote: > > We see these installations in 40k sq ft areas and more. It is a huge cost > impact. John has a great point. But I don’t have the PE letters behind my > name so I tend to be a bit on the conservative side. > > Travis Mack, CFPS, CWBSP, RME-G, SET > 480-505-9271 > MFP Design, LLC > www.mfpdesign,com > Send large files to MFP Design via: > https://www.hightail.com/u/MFPDesign > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Apr 2, 2019, at 7:27 PM, Fpdcdesign <[email protected]> wrote: > > John, > > I understand your position, but most of this type of installation I see is 8 > sprinklers or less. I don’t think that dry vs standard sprinklers in this > type of installation have a significant impact to fire protection. I would > prefer to err on the side of caution. > > Todd G Williams, PE > Fire Protection Design/Consulting > Stonington, CT > 860-535-2080 (ofc) > 860-553-3553 (fax) > 860-608-4559 (cell) > > > On Apr 2, 2019 at 8:50 PM, <John Denhardt> wrote: > > > I fully understand you position but the standard has involved in my opinion. > If the piping is not subject to freezing, normal sprinklers and a wet system > provide better fire protection for the building and the owner. (My personal > opinion) > > The current NFPA 13s allow it. There is additional language in the standard > where the system can be exposed to temperatures below 32F for short periods. > > John > > John August Denhardt, P.E. > 301.343.1457 - Mobile > > From: Sprinklerforum <[email protected]> On > Behalf Of Fpdcdesign > Sent: Tuesday, April 2, 2019 8:23 PM > To: Sprinklerforum <[email protected]> > Subject: Re: Dry Pendents Required in Coolers? > > There is a magic number of 40degF that shows up a lot in 13 for wet vs dry. I > use the same for determining dry pendent vs wet. Under 40degF COOLER, DRY > PENDENT. > > Todd G Williams, PE > Fire Protection Design/Consulting > Stonington, CT > 860-535-2080 (ofc) > 860-553-3553 (fax) > 860-608-4559 (cell) > > > > On Apr 2, 2019 at 7:51 PM, <John Denhardt> wrote: > I have done it many times and never had an issue. I receive a letter from > the cooler box stating the lowest temperature the box can reach. In most > cases, there are inter-locks to shut down the refrigeration system down if it > drops below a preset temperature. Also, cold air does sink. > > The cost, reliability (in the past) and future testing makes me not want to > utilize dry type sprinklers unless absolutely necessary. > > Thanks, > John > > John August Denhardt, P.E. > 301.343.1457 - Mobile > > From: Sprinklerforum <[email protected]> On > Behalf Of Nick Maneen > Sent: Tuesday, April 2, 2019 7:46 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: Dry Pendents Required in Coolers? > > I wouldn't. Water begins to expand about 37/38 degrees. The key word is to me > is "reliably". There are all kinds of scenarios where that temperature can > drop. The standard is set for a generic situation, not a specific one. Also, > my own home refrigerator has spots colder than the overall ambient > temperature. There is too much risk for not enough reward. > Nick Maneen > 704-791-7789 > > On Tue, Apr 2, 2019, 7:38 PM Kyle.Montgomery <[email protected]> > wrote: > 2019 NFPA 13: > > 16.4.1.1 Where any portion of a system is subject to freezing AND the > temperatures cannot be reliably maintained at or above 40 degrees F, the > system shall be installed as a dry pipe or preaction system. > > I’m sure this has been discussed before, but the above statement requires two > conditions: > > > 1. System is subject to freezing > > 2. The temperatures cannot be reliably maintained at or above 40 > degrees F > > It says AND, so it has to be both, not one or the other, right? > > So if I have a 38 degree F cooler, is it fair to say that it is not “subject > to freezing”, and thus does not require protection? Is it acceptable to drop > a wet pendent head into the cooler, rather than use a dry pendent? > > -Kyle M > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org > _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org > > _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__lists.firesprinkler.org_listinfo.cgi_sprinklerforum-2Dfiresprinkler.org&d=DwICAg&c=wn3mZQLIuInh2ClcJ0_DIA&r=Z_2A85VL7AQzoqudh6uOyS3bn8etxB7nLN8OBJwQd9A&m=KryIueb30FAd26l6mZm7ybtajJBrvtYT4CVj0Mtjr-I&s=bmXRAXyl9zqYO7lvPrJQji8RaiTxbYjRsCLSWnptsBQ&e=_______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__lists.firesprinkler.org_listinfo.cgi_sprinklerforum-2Dfiresprinkler.org&d=DwICAg&c=GKdB6-XpYq_0W-WluyVHtw&r=z4t2hrRBa-JsS06T4X_uuYOSJoclVWgSRO8Nq6TDdsg&m=e8PVyFDy41NUnUgmVz5KkaWBA2KteebWoxq4QNBUYzM&s=dhrn_fmSA9_y43uiyJGBvucyIRBO9sElwhi50WJxGeU&e= > > > This message is for the named person's use only. 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