It is definitely a challenge to get down to the details for these systems to 
determine the implications for “supply its water from the automatic sprinkler 
system”. I don’t think the system nuts and bolts details are easily available 
online for inquiry. I have seen the installation and controls diagrams for such 
an existing system, which probably was tucked into the control cabinet or 
pasted to its access door. It had two water supply connections. One was for 
cold water and one was for hot water. 

These hot and cold supplies connected to electrically operated valves. The 
control panel switched the water supply between cold and hot as needed for the 
suppression mode and the wash down mode. In this part of the country connecting 
the cold supply to the automatic sprinkler system meant there are two possible 
water supply cross contamination avenues. One is the automatic sprinkler system 
crossing into the kitchen hot water system which may not have had an RPZ back 
flow preventer on its supply line. The other avenue is the wet chemical 
suppression agent somehow backing into the sprinkler system, thus requiring an 
RPZ back flow preventer between the sprinkler system and its water supply. 

New Zealand sounds like it may be sophisticated in its rules regarding these 
systems so that the question regarding supply from the automatic sprinkler 
system is not one that opens a can of worms.

Allan Seidel
St.Louis, MO

> On Aug 15, 2019, at 7:26 PM, Russell Gregory via Sprinklerforum 
> <sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> wrote:
> 
> Further to Nicky’s comments I would add that the systems installed as tail 
> end to fire sprinklers do not have the hood washing feature that the Captive 
> Air appear to have.
> Pressure reducing is needed in some cases.
>  
> Russell Gregory
> Christchurch; New Zealand
>  
> From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] 
> On Behalf Of Nicky Marshall via Sprinklerforum
> Sent: Friday, 16 August 2019 11:43 AM
> To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
> Cc: Nicky Marshall; Travis Mack
> Subject: RE: [EXTERNAL] Re: Captive Aire Systems
>  
> In New Zealand, we frequently connect them to a sprinkler system as the 
> installation of an approved ‘restaurant system’ permits sprinklers to be 
> omitted from ducts and hoods in our standard.
> We do not allow a cumulative demand.  Although our standard does not 
> explicitly state what you should do.
> When connected to a sprinkler system they are treated much like a ‘tail-end’ 
> pre-action or dry system.  Because sprinkler system compliance is dependent 
> on that system, they are connected with a supervised/monitored valve to warn 
> if closed and they also usually have a flow or operation switch on them that 
> indicates on a fire alarm panel.
> Our suppliers also do the calculations.
>  
>  
> <image004.jpg>Nicky Marshall <>
> Southern Regional Manager
> PROTECH DESIGN LIMITED
> Specialist Fire Protection Consultants
> Phone: +64 (0)3 579 5577 extn 1  Mobile: +64 (0)21 433 488  Email: 
> ni...@protechdesign.co.nz <mailto:ni...@protechdesign.co.nz>  Web 
> :www.protechdesign.co.nz
> Address:105A Alabama Rd, Redwoodtown, Blenheim 7201, NZ Skype for Business: 
> ni...@protechdesign.co.nz <mailto:ni...@protechdesign.co.nz>
> <image005.jpg>
> “I always wondered why somebody doesn't do something about that. Then I 
> realised I was somebody” Lily Tomlin
>  
>>>  
>>> From: Sprinklerforum <sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org 
>>> <mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org>> On Behalf Of 
>>> Travis Mack, SET, CFPS, CWBSP, RME-G via Sprinklerforum
>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 14, 2019 6:32 PM
>>> To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org 
>>> <mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>
>>> Cc: Travis Mack, SET, CFPS, CWBSP, RME-G <tm...@mfpdesign.com 
>>> <mailto:tm...@mfpdesign.com>>; 'Bruce Verhei' <bver...@comcast.net 
>>> <mailto:bver...@comcast.net>>
>>> Subject: RE: Captive Aire Systems
>>>  
>>> Get this.  They are concerned of the domestic system robbing the hood of 
>>> the water.  So this is why they are pushing it to the sprinkler system.  
>>> We’ve seen these attached to both domestic and fire.  I always push for 
>>> domestic because I don’t want to deal with them.  I find it funny that the 
>>> hood supplier will say it has to connect to the sprinkler system but they 
>>> won’t do anything to prove it will work.  They throw that all back to the 
>>> sprinkler guys.  Just been one of those days.
>>>  
>>> <image003.jpg> 
>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.mfpdesign.com_&d=DwMFaQ&c=wn3mZQLIuInh2ClcJ0_DIA&r=Z_2A85VL7AQzoqudh6uOyS3bn8etxB7nLN8OBJwQd9A&m=P9cL1oBlMFsJR9PkQUpPBhDWLqRBCWXfiCfaqcJDrso&s=Acxe8iKYA32DZOYelVqiEbnMyMuAFqfl5EZoKkQ2Avg&e=>
>>> Travis Mack, CFPS, CWBSP, RME-G, SET
>>> MFP Design, LLC
>>> 3356 E Vallejo Ct
>>> Gilbert, AZ 85298
>>> 480-505-9271
>>> fax: 866-430-6107
>>> tm...@mfpdesign.com <mailto:tm...@mfpdesign.com>
>>> www.mfpdesign.com 
>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.mfpdesign.com&d=DwMFaQ&c=wn3mZQLIuInh2ClcJ0_DIA&r=Z_2A85VL7AQzoqudh6uOyS3bn8etxB7nLN8OBJwQd9A&m=P9cL1oBlMFsJR9PkQUpPBhDWLqRBCWXfiCfaqcJDrso&s=Gltsm1BrBL21AQMy8Nvo33FoaCPDBK_xhLt7P67dJR8&e=>
>>>  
>>> Send large files to us via: https://www.hightail.com/u/MFPDesign 
>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com_-3Furl-3Dhttps-253A-252F-252Fwww.hightail.com-252Fu-252FMFPDesign-26data-3D02-257C01-257C-257C1121d49f9e6b4cf248f108d4df580e77-257C14e5497c16da42e69ffa77d19bafe511-257C0-257C0-257C636379016677342180-26sdata-3DeGdMZGu2wXhUupGwgGTrqF3b54OP5-252BAZvlHhABSexWY-253D-26reserved-3D0&d=DwMFaQ&c=wn3mZQLIuInh2ClcJ0_DIA&r=Z_2A85VL7AQzoqudh6uOyS3bn8etxB7nLN8OBJwQd9A&m=P9cL1oBlMFsJR9PkQUpPBhDWLqRBCWXfiCfaqcJDrso&s=H5GpUDcGGbSUN2hDfLN78D0iAPeCFMWGbSwO9v2rDEs&e=>
>>> LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/travismack 
>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com_-3Furl-3Dhttps-253A-252F-252Fwww.linkedin.com-252Fin-252Ftravismack-26data-3D02-257C01-257C-257C1121d49f9e6b4cf248f108d4df580e77-257C14e5497c16da42e69ffa77d19bafe511-257C0-257C0-257C636379016677342180-26sdata-3DtT5E7LsZjSmyreKi4gDCa70EWN-252BZodi-252FhbeCbHNRijI-253D-26reserved-3D0&d=DwMFaQ&c=wn3mZQLIuInh2ClcJ0_DIA&r=Z_2A85VL7AQzoqudh6uOyS3bn8etxB7nLN8OBJwQd9A&m=P9cL1oBlMFsJR9PkQUpPBhDWLqRBCWXfiCfaqcJDrso&s=usaND8vUFqwjN4Jt0Ec36pz4KZQvXJyWus4GHBqT3tU&e=>
>>>  
>>> “The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low 
>>> price is forgotten.”
>>>  
>>>  
>>> From: Sprinklerforum <sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org 
>>> <mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org>> On Behalf Of Bruce 
>>> Verhei via Sprinklerforum
>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 14, 2019 3:28 PM
>>> To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org 
>>> <mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>
>>> Cc: Bruce Verhei <bver...@comcast.net <mailto:bver...@comcast.net>>
>>> Subject: Re: Captive Aire Systems
>>>  
>>> I might be a couple years out of date. I think the ones we saw were off 
>>> domestic water, with a small backflow device. You can’t run a restaurant 
>>> without water, so there is no concern about water system not being 
>>> monitored.  
>>> 
>>> Best.
>>> 
>>> On Aug 14, 2019, at 15:19, Travis Mack, SET, CFPS, CWBSP, RME-G via 
>>> Sprinklerforum <sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org 
>>> <mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>> wrote:
>>> 
>>>> I’m sure some of you have dealt with these Captive Aire / Piranha systems. 
>>>>  Basically they are hood systems that connect to the sprinkler system.  
>>>> The one I have a data sheet for has an operating pressure of 32-70 psi and 
>>>> flows vary depending on # of nozzles.  How do those of you dealing with 
>>>> these handle them?  The supplier will not do any calculations for the 
>>>> system.  My question is, do we treat these like a “rack” system and 
>>>> balance the hood systems to the overhead?  If I have a kitchen with 3 of 
>>>> these, do I figure 0, 1, 2 or 3 flowing simultaneously with the overhead.  
>>>> As you can imagine, a standard sprinkler in the kitchen is ±10 psi.  Now, 
>>>> if we have to treat this like a rack system and balance at the junction 
>>>> point, this 30 psi for the Piranha system will significantly 
>>>> over-discharge the sprinklers leading to a much larger kitchen demand.  
>>>> These often seem to be brought up toward the end of the project leaving 
>>>> everyone scrambling.
>>>>  
>>>> What has the collective group been doing with these things?
>>>>  
>>>> <image002.jpg> 
>>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.mfpdesign.com_&d=DwMFaQ&c=wn3mZQLIuInh2ClcJ0_DIA&r=Z_2A85VL7AQzoqudh6uOyS3bn8etxB7nLN8OBJwQd9A&m=P9cL1oBlMFsJR9PkQUpPBhDWLqRBCWXfiCfaqcJDrso&s=Acxe8iKYA32DZOYelVqiEbnMyMuAFqfl5EZoKkQ2Avg&e=>
>>>> Travis Mack, CFPS, CWBSP, RME-G, SET
>>>> MFP Design, LLC
>>>> 3356 E Vallejo Ct
>>>> Gilbert, AZ 85298
>>>> 480-505-9271
>>>> fax: 866-430-6107
>>>> tm...@mfpdesign.com <mailto:tm...@mfpdesign.com>
>>>> www.mfpdesign.com 
>>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.mfpdesign.com&d=DwMFaQ&c=wn3mZQLIuInh2ClcJ0_DIA&r=Z_2A85VL7AQzoqudh6uOyS3bn8etxB7nLN8OBJwQd9A&m=P9cL1oBlMFsJR9PkQUpPBhDWLqRBCWXfiCfaqcJDrso&s=Gltsm1BrBL21AQMy8Nvo33FoaCPDBK_xhLt7P67dJR8&e=>
>>>>  
>>>> Send large files to us via: https://www.hightail.com/u/MFPDesign 
>>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com_-3Furl-3Dhttps-253A-252F-252Fwww.hightail.com-252Fu-252FMFPDesign-26data-3D02-257C01-257C-257C1121d49f9e6b4cf248f108d4df580e77-257C14e5497c16da42e69ffa77d19bafe511-257C0-257C0-257C636379016677342180-26sdata-3DeGdMZGu2wXhUupGwgGTrqF3b54OP5-252BAZvlHhABSexWY-253D-26reserved-3D0&d=DwMFaQ&c=wn3mZQLIuInh2ClcJ0_DIA&r=Z_2A85VL7AQzoqudh6uOyS3bn8etxB7nLN8OBJwQd9A&m=P9cL1oBlMFsJR9PkQUpPBhDWLqRBCWXfiCfaqcJDrso&s=H5GpUDcGGbSUN2hDfLN78D0iAPeCFMWGbSwO9v2rDEs&e=>
>>>> LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/travismack 
>>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com_-3Furl-3Dhttps-253A-252F-252Fwww.linkedin.com-252Fin-252Ftravismack-26data-3D02-257C01-257C-257C1121d49f9e6b4cf248f108d4df580e77-257C14e5497c16da42e69ffa77d19bafe511-257C0-257C0-257C636379016677342180-26sdata-3DtT5E7LsZjSmyreKi4gDCa70EWN-252BZodi-252FhbeCbHNRijI-253D-26reserved-3D0&d=DwMFaQ&c=wn3mZQLIuInh2ClcJ0_DIA&r=Z_2A85VL7AQzoqudh6uOyS3bn8etxB7nLN8OBJwQd9A&m=P9cL1oBlMFsJR9PkQUpPBhDWLqRBCWXfiCfaqcJDrso&s=usaND8vUFqwjN4Jt0Ec36pz4KZQvXJyWus4GHBqT3tU&e=>
>>>>  
>>>> “The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low 
>>>> price is forgotten.”
>>>>  
>>>>  
>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>> <mailto:Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>
>>>> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
>>>>  
>>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__lists.firesprinkler.org_listinfo.cgi_sprinklerforum-2Dfiresprinkler.org&d=DwMFaQ&c=wn3mZQLIuInh2ClcJ0_DIA&r=Z_2A85VL7AQzoqudh6uOyS3bn8etxB7nLN8OBJwQd9A&m=P9cL1oBlMFsJR9PkQUpPBhDWLqRBCWXfiCfaqcJDrso&s=T3abdCJcL43WzYbqM5JYSYAuF4bLuKvYHLHDvX-ckJI&e=>
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