Every few months we get a GC asking us to hook up to these systems, we 
“politely” refuse.

The manufacturer’s literature is vague, installation requirements can be 
expensive (reduced pressure backflow, low maximum pressure limit, pipe sizing?, 
inspection/testing requirements?), and we’ve had Captive Aire submit these for 
permit under our contractor number without permission.  After trying to 
facilitate installation on a couple projects, we’ve determined it’s not worth 
the hassle.

Phil Stoehr
Design Manager
Smith Fire Systems
Direct: (253) 248-2057
Cell:  (253) 380-1623
psto...@smithfire.com<mailto:psto...@smithfire.com>

From: Kyle.Montgomery <kmontgom...@aerofire.com>
Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2019 1:22 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Cc: Travis Mack <tm...@mfpdesign.com>; Ron Greenman <rongreen...@gmail.com>
Subject: RE: [EXTERNAL] Re: Captive Aire Systems

Travis,

In a roundabout way, that sort of answers your question. If they aren’t allowed 
to connect to domestic fixtures that may be operating at the same time, then it 
stands to reason that they shouldn’t connect to sprinkler systems that are 
operating at the same time. Ergo, if they are allowed to be connected to the 
sprinkler system, then it stands to reason that the sprinklers should not be 
operating simultaneously with this system.

Case closed. ☺

-Kyle M


From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On 
Behalf Of Travis Mack via Sprinklerforum
Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2019 12:49 PM
To: 
sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>
Cc: Travis Mack <tm...@mfpdesign.com<mailto:tm...@mfpdesign.com>>; Ron Greenman 
<rongreen...@gmail.com<mailto:rongreen...@gmail.com>>
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: Captive Aire Systems

I’ve run into these on multiple projects. They go by the name Captive Aire, 
Core and Pirhana.

They have a pressure demand of 32-70 psi and a flow rate of about 40 gpm 
depending on the number of nozzles. We see these in Marriott properties often.

They can be off domestic or fire as I see it. They are supposed to be direct 
line as was described to me yesterday. So they can’t have sinks or other 
fixture coming off the line supplying them. Doesn’t make sense why it can 
attach to sprinkler then. But none of the suppliers will state if we have to 
flow this simultaneously with sprinklers.

This job is always fun. Get to see lots of crazy things.
Travis Mack, CFPS, CWBSP, RME-G, SET
480-505-9271
MFP Design, LLC
www.mfpdesign,com<http://www.mfpdesign,com>
Send large files to MFP Design via:
https://www.hightail.com/u/MFPDesign<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.hightail.com_u_MFPDesign&d=DwMFaQ&c=wn3mZQLIuInh2ClcJ0_DIA&r=Z_2A85VL7AQzoqudh6uOyS3bn8etxB7nLN8OBJwQd9A&m=P9cL1oBlMFsJR9PkQUpPBhDWLqRBCWXfiCfaqcJDrso&s=9xvLfQ6AqIL4u1QdnX9fyYjt0D0CraEfbnfamwDCjHU&e=>

Sent from my iPhone

On Aug 15, 2019, at 11:36 AM, Ron Greenman via Sprinklerforum 
<sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>>
 wrote:
Travis,

Like Bruce, I may be a few years out of date also but I've never seen one of 
these connected to a sprinkler system. They are for a special hazard and so 
independent of the life safety and building protection definition for a 
sprinkler system. These are designed to smother the fire with the saponifying 
agent and then use the water to cool down the appliances to avoid reflash. Way 
back in the nineties, this system was a way that Ansul came up with to meet the 
new requirements of UL 300. requirements that commercial cooking operations had 
to comply with even in unsprinklered buildings (think stand-alone McDonald's, 
Red Robins, etc, under 5000 or 6000 sqft that weren't required to be 
sprinklered then). Note that NFPA 13 isn't even referenced as an applicable 
code/standard.

CODES AND STANDARDS
The PIRANHA hybrid wet agent system and its components meet the following 
codes, standards and recommended practices:

1. Underwriters Laboratories, Inc. (UL): Standard 300 – Fire Testing of Fire 
Extinguishing Systems for Protection of Restaurant Cooking Areas.

2. Underwriters Laboratories, Inc. (UL): Standard 2092 – Pre-Engineered Wet 
Chemical Extinguishing Units.

3. Underwriters Laboratory of Canada (ULC): Standard ORD-C1254.6 – 
Pre-Engineered Wet Chemical Extinguishing System Units.

4. National Fire Protection Association (NFPA): Standard 17A – Wet Chemical 
Extinguishing Systems.

5. National Fire Protection Association (NFPA): Standard 96 – Ventilation 
Control and Fire Protection of Commercial Cooking Operations.

6. American Society of Sanitary Engineers (ASSE): Standard 1001 – Cross 
Connection Protection Devices: Guidelines for Selection of the Proper Type of 
Backflow Preventor – Piped Applied Atmospheric Vacuum Breakers.

7. International Association of Plumbing and Mechanical Officials (IAPMO): 
Installation, Material and Property Standard PS 108-98 – Grease Fire 
Suppression Systems.


Ron Greenman

rongreen...@gmail.com<mailto:rongreen...@gmail.com>

253.576.9700

The Universe is monstrously indifferent to the presence of man. -Werner Herzog, 
screenwriter, film director, author, actor and opera director (1942-)


On Thu, Aug 15, 2019 at 8:21 AM Matthew J Willis via Sprinklerforum 
<sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>>
 wrote:
The purpose of a “hood” in this application is to direct and capture grease 
laden stuff…

Re: NFPA 96.

R/
Matt

Matthew J. Willis, CWBSP
Design Manager /3-D Specialist
Rapid Fire Protection 
Inc.<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__rapidfireinc.com_&d=DwMFaQ&c=wn3mZQLIuInh2ClcJ0_DIA&r=Z_2A85VL7AQzoqudh6uOyS3bn8etxB7nLN8OBJwQd9A&m=P9cL1oBlMFsJR9PkQUpPBhDWLqRBCWXfiCfaqcJDrso&s=k6wCrLzNrRjwhH8nRUMeDPywRT7yZPkGxEIvY25h9Kk&e=>
1530 Samco Road
Rapid City, SD 57702
Office-605.348.2342
Direct Line-605.593.5063
Cell-605.391.2733
Fax:-605.348.0108

<image002.png>

From: Sprinklerforum 
<sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org>>
 On Behalf Of Jonathan Mote via Sprinklerforum
Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2019 9:15 AM
To: 
sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>
Cc: Jonathan Mote 
<jonat...@rowesprinkler.com<mailto:jonat...@rowesprinkler.com>>
Subject: RE: Captive Aire Systems

Those hoods meet the definition of a draft curtain, added in 2013 edition, I 
would think they could be considered independently of the regular system.

Jonathan Mote, WBSL NICET II

From: Sprinklerforum 
<sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org>>
 On Behalf Of Travis Mack, SET, CFPS, CWBSP, RME-G via Sprinklerforum
Sent: Wednesday, August 14, 2019 6:32 PM
To: 
sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>
Cc: Travis Mack, SET, CFPS, CWBSP, RME-G 
<tm...@mfpdesign.com<mailto:tm...@mfpdesign.com>>; 'Bruce Verhei' 
<bver...@comcast.net<mailto:bver...@comcast.net>>
Subject: RE: Captive Aire Systems

Get this.  They are concerned of the domestic system robbing the hood of the 
water.  So this is why they are pushing it to the sprinkler system.  We’ve seen 
these attached to both domestic and fire.  I always push for domestic because I 
don’t want to deal with them.  I find it funny that the hood supplier will say 
it has to connect to the sprinkler system but they won’t do anything to prove 
it will work.  They throw that all back to the sprinkler guys.  Just been one 
of those days.

<image003.jpg><https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.mfpdesign.com_&d=DwMFaQ&c=wn3mZQLIuInh2ClcJ0_DIA&r=Z_2A85VL7AQzoqudh6uOyS3bn8etxB7nLN8OBJwQd9A&m=P9cL1oBlMFsJR9PkQUpPBhDWLqRBCWXfiCfaqcJDrso&s=Acxe8iKYA32DZOYelVqiEbnMyMuAFqfl5EZoKkQ2Avg&e=>
Travis Mack, CFPS, CWBSP, RME-G, SET
MFP Design, LLC
3356 E Vallejo Ct
Gilbert, AZ 85298
480-505-9271
fax: 866-430-6107
tm...@mfpdesign.com<mailto:tm...@mfpdesign.com>
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“The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low price 
is forgotten.”


From: Sprinklerforum 
<sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org>>
 On Behalf Of Bruce Verhei via Sprinklerforum
Sent: Wednesday, August 14, 2019 3:28 PM
To: 
sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>
Cc: Bruce Verhei <bver...@comcast.net<mailto:bver...@comcast.net>>
Subject: Re: Captive Aire Systems

I might be a couple years out of date. I think the ones we saw were off 
domestic water, with a small backflow device. You can’t run a restaurant 
without water, so there is no concern about water system not being monitored.
Best.

On Aug 14, 2019, at 15:19, Travis Mack, SET, CFPS, CWBSP, RME-G via 
Sprinklerforum 
<sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>>
 wrote:
I’m sure some of you have dealt with these Captive Aire / Piranha systems.  
Basically they are hood systems that connect to the sprinkler system.  The one 
I have a data sheet for has an operating pressure of 32-70 psi and flows vary 
depending on # of nozzles.  How do those of you dealing with these handle them? 
 The supplier will not do any calculations for the system.  My question is, do 
we treat these like a “rack” system and balance the hood systems to the 
overhead?  If I have a kitchen with 3 of these, do I figure 0, 1, 2 or 3 
flowing simultaneously with the overhead.  As you can imagine, a standard 
sprinkler in the kitchen is ±10 psi.  Now, if we have to treat this like a rack 
system and balance at the junction point, this 30 psi for the Piranha system 
will significantly over-discharge the sprinklers leading to a much larger 
kitchen demand.  These often seem to be brought up toward the end of the 
project leaving everyone scrambling.

What has the collective group been doing with these things?

<image002.jpg><https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.mfpdesign.com_&d=DwMFaQ&c=wn3mZQLIuInh2ClcJ0_DIA&r=Z_2A85VL7AQzoqudh6uOyS3bn8etxB7nLN8OBJwQd9A&m=P9cL1oBlMFsJR9PkQUpPBhDWLqRBCWXfiCfaqcJDrso&s=Acxe8iKYA32DZOYelVqiEbnMyMuAFqfl5EZoKkQ2Avg&e=>
Travis Mack, CFPS, CWBSP, RME-G, SET
MFP Design, LLC
3356 E Vallejo Ct
Gilbert, AZ 85298
480-505-9271
fax: 866-430-6107
tm...@mfpdesign.com<mailto:tm...@mfpdesign.com>
www.mfpdesign.com<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.mfpdesign.com&d=DwMFaQ&c=wn3mZQLIuInh2ClcJ0_DIA&r=Z_2A85VL7AQzoqudh6uOyS3bn8etxB7nLN8OBJwQd9A&m=P9cL1oBlMFsJR9PkQUpPBhDWLqRBCWXfiCfaqcJDrso&s=Gltsm1BrBL21AQMy8Nvo33FoaCPDBK_xhLt7P67dJR8&e=>

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“The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low price 
is forgotten.”


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