Fire sprinkler design is a later, not earlier in process, activity. The aerosol section has lots of design choices. All requested by industry. ....
Its the only part of the fire code I created a formal flow chart, or key, for. It took several iterations to get it right. A couple full sized blue print sheets, taped into one. I gave a class to the inspectors. Wrong move. Instead of seeing as I did that they could easily run down the pathways, arriving at least protection required, or one of two or three options, they saw complexity of whole and saw it as unsolvable mess. Easier to go just ask Bruce. What a mistake. I never repeated it for other chapters of code. Best. Bruce > On Nov 8, 2019, at 13:32, Shawn Chapman via Sprinklerforum > <sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> wrote: > > Thanks for sharing your knowledge. I'm trying to work through a project with > NO wirecagging or segregattion where an owner is wanting to shelve aerosols > on a racking area of appx. 17,720 square feet on one end of his warehouse. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Bruce Verhei via Sprinklerforum <sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> > To: sprinklerforum <sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> > Cc: Bruce Verhei <bver...@comcast.net> > Sent: Fri, Nov 8, 2019 4:24 pm > Subject: Re: Aerosol determinations > > > Most aerosol containers failed in these modes: > > -Stays in place, a jet of flame shoots up from top. > > - complete failure of container at once. Ball of flame, 4’-8’(?) that goes up > towards ceiling. Dramatic when this is happening a dozen times a minute. > > -Same as first example but can is not restrained. Remember jet? Jet propels > container off in unknown direction. Lodges, starts another fire at bottom of > fuel matrix, or commodity storage system. I prefer fuel matrix by the way. > > Sprinkler system design criteria aren’t intended to control 20 or 50 fire > starts simultaneously. > > Jetting cans create another fire protection system challenge. Zoom through a > rated fire door before it’s closed and fire door is worthless. FM decided > this scenario, repeated, was cause of maximum foreseeable loss walls failing > to matter at K-Mart. $100m was big money back then. I assume your liability > carrier would still consider it so. > > That’s why Segregated Storage as a storage option for up to a considerable > amount of storage was created. Cyclone fencing does nothing to stop heat or > smoke. It restrains jetting cans. They don’t get to start fires away from > segregated storage area. Area of sprinkler operations is confined. Fire > politely stays where sprinkler designers have provided a higher level of > protection. > > Not ever mentioned at time, but I find important. If FF’s feel they need to > use their 2 1/2”’s vs pumping the FDC and waiting, the fire is restrained as > they approach. The don’t get a jetting, still burning, tin lodged in their > SCBA webbing. > > All depends on maintaining clear space outside fence. > > I always had fencing placed on inside, that is towards the aerosol side of > segregated storage. Inherently more secure than a few clips. > > Yours in Fire Protection. > > Best. > > Bruce > > > >> On Nov 8, 2019, at 12:52, Bruce Verhei <bver...@comcast.net> wrote: >> >> Unlabeled requires highest level of protection measures, including >> sprinklers. Intentionally written that way to motivate manufacturers. >> >> Cartons, labeled, not individual cans. >> >> Best. >> >>> On Nov 8, 2019, at 12:42, Shawn Chapman via Sprinklerforum >>> <sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> wrote: >>> >>> Bruce, Am I understanding correctly that unlabeled would mean level 1? >>> Softest form of sprinkler coverage? >>> >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Bruce Verhei via Sprinklerforum >>> <sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> >>> To: sprinklerforum <sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> >>> Cc: Bruce Verhei <bver...@comcast.net> >>> Sent: Fri, Nov 8, 2019 3:28 pm >>> Subject: Re: Aerosol determinations >>> >>> >>> MSDS are not designed or intended to provide information needed for >>> building or fire code compliance. >>> ... >>> >>> Part of the IFC requires each carton to be labeled by the manufacturer. If >>> it’s not labeled, it is protected to Class III. >>> >>> This is explicit in the code. >>> >>> I worked at town with lots of tilt-up distribution centers, in a state that >>> adopts the next IFC quicker than most. The 2018 editions went into effect >>> here last July 1. >>> >>> I had phone calls from increasingly high up the corporate ladder when the >>> change to current storage systems occurred. All said the same thing. We’re >>> not going to label cartons just because one pissant fire inspector in one >>> jurisdiction says so. Eventually I’d convince them that more or less within >>> a year or two most of the U.S. would be on the same sheet. I learned to >>> send them a copy of the aerosol consortium membership list that funded the >>> R&D. Of course their corporation was on the list. I’d suggest they talk to >>> whoever in their own corporation was involved in writing the checks. >>> >>> As refresher the model codes used to require flammable aerosols to be >>> stored in a Flammable Liquids Warehouse (code defined term) after a quite >>> low trigger, 500? 1,000? pounds. Not enforced much before the K-Mart >>> distribution fire. Contained everything in a K-Mart store. 1.2m sf. Each >>> 400ksf separated by FM maximum foreseeable loss walls. Right to the ground >>> of course. Cause of fire? I don’t remember. Cause of loss of building? >>> Aerosols. >>> >>> So FM basically freaked out. People started enforcing the code as written. >>> Aerosol industry funded a series of tests. Existing standards came from >>> that test series. Later tests expanded range of options. No regular fire >>> code committee would have came up with a safety system that is based on >>> cyclone fencing. >>> >>> Class III. The manufacturer will get on board. Almost invariably if they >>> don’t label that’s what it anyway. >>> >>> Best. >>> >>> Bruce >>> >>>> On Nov 8, 2019, at 11:54, Shawn Chapman via Sprinklerforum >>>> <sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> Could anyone assist with determing the level of classification of aerosols >>>> per NFPA 30B? >>>> I'm trying to determine the total chemical heat of combustion for some >>>> aerosol products (8600-13,000 btu)?? >>>> Product MSDS sheets don't identify. >>>> Thanks in advance. >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Sprinklerforum mailing list >>>> Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org >>>> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Sprinklerforum mailing list >>> Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org >>> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Sprinklerforum mailing list >>> Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org >>> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org >> > > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org > > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
