I have done multiple BIM projects. The other trades usually do not follow the model to a T as drawn for no justifiable reason that I have seen. BIM does work much better than traditional coordinating in my experience but I have not seen the savings in labor that would significantly justify the additional expense in design as of yet.
Just my opinion Greg McGahan Genesis Fire Services, LLC o-850-637-8535 From: Sprinklerforum <[email protected]> On Behalf Of Prahl, Craig/GVL via Sprinklerforum Sent: Wednesday, January 15, 2020 2:36 PM To: [email protected] Cc: Prahl, Craig/GVL <[email protected]>; Travis Mack, SET, CFPS, CWBSP, RME-G <[email protected]> Subject: RE: BIM Woes We did REVIT design for a process building, 4 levels, 8 foam-water deluge systems, flow was 7600 gpm. We coordinated with every discipline, every discipline worked together as the final product had to be certified clash free. Contractors were instructed to NOT deviate from the design documents or any cost associated with their change was on their nickel. Bids came in and were super close. After it was all over I queried the sprinkler contractor to get his feedback on the package and installation. He told me they chopped $200K out of the bid (winning bid was $1.4MM) that would have been allocated for unplanned rework. They only had to reroute one section of pipe due to a field routed conduit bank that wasn’t modeled. When the design is done right and all participate, and the contractors are held to follow that design, BIM works. Craig Prahl | Jacobs | Group Lead/SME – Fire Protection | 864.676.5252 | <mailto:[email protected]> [email protected] | <http://www.jacobs.com/> www.jacobs.com 1041 East Butler Road Greenville, South Carolina 29606 From: Sprinklerforum <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > On Behalf Of Travis Mack, SET, CFPS, CWBSP, RME-G via Sprinklerforum Sent: Wednesday, January 15, 2020 3:05 PM To: [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> Cc: Travis Mack, SET, CFPS, CWBSP, RME-G <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > Subject: [EXTERNAL] RE: BIM Woes Until our industry embraces this BIM fully, we will have these issues. Steve nailed it. When done correctly, it is great. But we all have horror stories. Spend 6 months on 3D coordination and then no one follows the model. Just had an issue today. Fitter calls telling us we are hitting everything and that it is all wrong. Well, we pull up the model and show we are where we indicated. Turns out mechanical guy didn’t follow the model and now the coordination process begins out in the field. The is the same job where only fire/plumbing/duct are coordinating. There are electrical and other trades that just said they weren’t participating. So that project will be a total waste of time. We have seen ones go very well when all are on board. It all comes down to the strength of the 3D coordinator and the strength of the GC superintendent to enforce things. <https://urldefense.com/v3/__http:/www.mfpdesign.com/__;!!B5cixuoO7ltTeg!SlIpmz3y4kCwmsF_R2FLu6Qlq1t9IeHldJTkDobZxXnIiI1A42NCTEUMhqsOf6QG6w$> Travis Mack, CFPS, CWBSP, RME-G, SET MFP Design, LLC 3356 E Vallejo Ct Gilbert, AZ 85298 NEW EXTENSION: 480-505-9271 ext. 700 fax: 866-430-6107 <mailto:[email protected]> [email protected] www.mfpdesign.com <https://urldefense.com/v3/__http:/www.mfpdesign.com__;!!B5cixuoO7ltTeg!SlIpmz3y4kCwmsF_R2FLu6Qlq1t9IeHldJTkDobZxXnIiI1A42NCTEUMhqu8AmzB1A$> Send large files to us via: <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https*3A*2F*2Fwww.hightail.com*2Fu*2FMFPDesign&data=02*7C01*7C*7C1121d49f9e6b4cf248f108d4df580e77*7C14e5497c16da42e69ffa77d19bafe511*7C0*7C0*7C636379016677342180&sdata=eGdMZGu2wXhUupGwgGTrqF3b54OP5*2BAZvlHhABSexWY*3D&reserved=0__;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSU!!B5cixuoO7ltTeg!SlIpmz3y4kCwmsF_R2FLu6Qlq1t9IeHldJTkDobZxXnIiI1A42NCTEUMhqu2ZsOBZw$> https://www.hightail.com/u/MFPDesign LinkedIn: <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https*3A*2F*2Fwww.linkedin.com*2Fin*2Ftravismack&data=02*7C01*7C*7C1121d49f9e6b4cf248f108d4df580e77*7C14e5497c16da42e69ffa77d19bafe511*7C0*7C0*7C636379016677342180&sdata=tT5E7LsZjSmyreKi4gDCa70EWN*2BZodi*2FhbeCbHNRijI*3D&reserved=0__;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUl!!B5cixuoO7ltTeg!SlIpmz3y4kCwmsF_R2FLu6Qlq1t9IeHldJTkDobZxXnIiI1A42NCTEUMhqsvH7XVNw$> https://www.linkedin.com/in/travismack “The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten.” From: Matthew J Willis <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > Sent: Wednesday, January 15, 2020 12:54 PM To: [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> Cc: Steve Leyton <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >; 'Travis Mack, SET, CFPS, CWBSP, RME-G' <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >; Michael Goodis <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > Subject: BIM Woes Subject Change: I really enjoy BIM discussions. I call it BIM just to tick off T-Mack. I have had, and am continuing to have good success. Do they all work. No. Have I had tragedies, sure. All parties have to be onboard for it to work. It is always interesting because we are normally #11 or lower on the BIM hierarchy. That is fine with me. I prefer to know where everyone is. Keep in mind, you are 3 months behind when you get the job. Mech/Elec/Others are already drawn. Keep them where they are. Fight for your spot. BIM is here. To stay. R/ Matt Matthew J. Willis, CWBSP Design Manager /3-D Specialist <https://urldefense.com/v3/__http:/rapidfireinc.com/__;!!B5cixuoO7ltTeg!SlIpmz3y4kCwmsF_R2FLu6Qlq1t9IeHldJTkDobZxXnIiI1A42NCTEUMhquTMBtIDw$> Rapid Fire Protection Inc. 1530 Samco Road Rapid City, SD 57702 Office-605.348.2342 Direct Line-605.593.5063 Cell-605.391.2733 Fax:-605.348.0108 From: Sprinklerforum <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > On Behalf Of Steve Leyton via Sprinklerforum Sent: Wednesday, January 15, 2020 12:44 PM To: [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> Cc: Steve Leyton <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >; 'Travis Mack, SET, CFPS, CWBSP, RME-G' <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >; Michael Goodis <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > Subject: RE: [EXTERNAL] Pipe adjacent to duct Thank you Michael, that's music to my ears. We started drawing sprinkler plans in Revit six years ago because that's what our clients wanted and what their clients were demanding. Since that time, the amount of effort that we expend in the construction administration phase of our projects has been reduced by at least a third, perhaps by half. The fact is that BIM -not pretend NavisWorks BIM - but real parametric 3D drafting and coordination, does work and sometimes it works really well. Nothing's perfect, design and construction will never be fully in sync, but it's profoundly better. The fact that the fire sprinkler trade has mostly dismissed BIM as being of value is my bread and butter. Party on Garth... Steve Leyton (Sent from my phone; please excuse typos and voice text corruptions.) -------- Original message -------- From: Michael Goodis via Sprinklerforum <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > Date: 1/15/20 10:51 AM (GMT-06:00) To: [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> Cc: Michael Goodis <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >, "'Travis Mack, SET, CFPS, CWBSP, RME-G'" <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > Subject: RE: [EXTERNAL] Pipe adjacent to duct Bim modeling, that’s funny. Never seen it work yet…. Only thing its been god for is (your duct is in the way, we see you cant move, the model is wrong, let now reroute due to the conflict, oh and wait, its not a CO because this should have been caught during the bim modeling.) Great stuff with the GC’s pushing it off to try and cut the change orders out. Gotta love it. Michael Goodis Salesman, Project Manager IL#000635 NICET#135586 Key Fire Protection Enterprises LLC 3200 Mike Padgett HWY Augusta, GA 30906 Office- (706) 790-3473 Cell- (706) 220-8822 Fax: (706) 738-2119 From: Sprinklerforum <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > On Behalf Of Travis Mack, SET, CFPS, CWBSP, RME-G via Sprinklerforum Sent: Wednesday, January 15, 2020 11:44 AM To: [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> Cc: Travis Mack, SET, CFPS, CWBSP, RME-G <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > Subject: RE: [EXTERNAL] Pipe adjacent to duct Exactly. It’s all up in the air. It was a BIM job and not an issue with anyone during coordination. Now it’s all up in the air installed and seems to be an issue. You can’t win some days. Plus, it shouldn’t be an issue at all, but now it is. <https://urldefense.com/v3/__http:/www.mfpdesign.com/__;!!B5cixuoO7ltTeg!SlIpmz3y4kCwmsF_R2FLu6Qlq1t9IeHldJTkDobZxXnIiI1A42NCTEUMhqsOf6QG6w$> Travis Mack, CFPS, CWBSP, RME-G, SET MFP Design, LLC 3356 E Vallejo Ct Gilbert, AZ 85298 NEW EXTENSION: 480-505-9271 ext. 700 fax: 866-430-6107 <mailto:[email protected]> [email protected] www.mfpdesign.com <https://urldefense.com/v3/__http:/www.mfpdesign.com__;!!B5cixuoO7ltTeg!SlIpmz3y4kCwmsF_R2FLu6Qlq1t9IeHldJTkDobZxXnIiI1A42NCTEUMhqu8AmzB1A$> Send large files to us via: <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https*3A*2F*2Fwww.hightail.com*2Fu*2FMFPDesign&data=02*7C01*7C*7C1121d49f9e6b4cf248f108d4df580e77*7C14e5497c16da42e69ffa77d19bafe511*7C0*7C0*7C636379016677342180&sdata=eGdMZGu2wXhUupGwgGTrqF3b54OP5*2BAZvlHhABSexWY*3D&reserved=0__;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSU!!B5cixuoO7ltTeg!SlIpmz3y4kCwmsF_R2FLu6Qlq1t9IeHldJTkDobZxXnIiI1A42NCTEUMhqu2ZsOBZw$> https://www.hightail.com/u/MFPDesign LinkedIn: <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https*3A*2F*2Fwww.linkedin.com*2Fin*2Ftravismack&data=02*7C01*7C*7C1121d49f9e6b4cf248f108d4df580e77*7C14e5497c16da42e69ffa77d19bafe511*7C0*7C0*7C636379016677342180&sdata=tT5E7LsZjSmyreKi4gDCa70EWN*2BZodi*2FhbeCbHNRijI*3D&reserved=0__;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUl!!B5cixuoO7ltTeg!SlIpmz3y4kCwmsF_R2FLu6Qlq1t9IeHldJTkDobZxXnIiI1A42NCTEUMhqsvH7XVNw$> https://www.linkedin.com/in/travismack “The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten.” From: Sprinklerforum <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > On Behalf Of Prahl, Craig/GVL via Sprinklerforum Sent: Wednesday, January 15, 2020 9:41 AM To: [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> Cc: Prahl, Craig/GVL <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >; Travis Mack <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >; David Bohannon <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >; Matthew J Willis <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >; [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> Subject: RE: [EXTERNAL] Pipe adjacent to duct Well it’s only a click of the mouse and it’s moved, so what’s your problem? 😉 Craig Prahl | Jacobs | Group Lead/SME – Fire Protection | 864.676.5252 | <mailto:[email protected]> [email protected] | <http://www.jacobs.com/> www.jacobs.com 1041 East Butler Road Greenville, South Carolina 29606 From: Sprinklerforum <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > On Behalf Of Travis Mack via Sprinklerforum Sent: Wednesday, January 15, 2020 11:34 AM To: [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> Cc: Travis Mack <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >; [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> ; Matthew J Willis <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >; David Bohannon <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] Pipe adjacent to duct Lol. That’s too funny. Everyone thinks fire sprinkler can just magically move. Travis Mack, CFPS, CWBSP, RME-G, SET 480-505-9271 x700 MFP Design, LLC www.mfpdesign,com <https://urldefense.com/v3/__http:/www.mfpdesign,com__;!!B5cixuoO7ltTeg!SlIpmz3y4kCwmsF_R2FLu6Qlq1t9IeHldJTkDobZxXnIiI1A42NCTEUMhquB4cLC1g$> Send large files to MFP Design via: https://www.hightail.com/u/MFPDesign <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.hightail.com/u/MFPDesign__;!!B5cixuoO7ltTeg!Tdw2ycxMiEifeqPnNsaU3pOz4u4u_cZUe_St-0mFZXtsxNpCFWlsOvaona4GLVqxWQ$> Sent from my iPhone On Jan 15, 2020, at 9:23 AM, Matthew J Willis via Sprinklerforum <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > wrote: Hahahahaha From: David Bohannon <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > Sent: Wednesday, January 15, 2020 9:21 AM To: [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> Cc: Matthew J Willis <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >; [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> Subject: RE: [EXTERNAL] Pipe adjacent to duct Just a question. If the duct is to close to the fire main why wouldn’t the duct have to move? Isn’t life safety more important than climate comfort? Sent from AOL Mobile Mail Get the new AOL app: mail.mobile.aol.com <https://urldefense.com/v3/__http:/mail.mobile.aol.com__;!!B5cixuoO7ltTeg!Tdw2ycxMiEifeqPnNsaU3pOz4u4u_cZUe_St-0mFZXtsxNpCFWlsOvaona7NH3VpRw$> On Wednesday, January 15, 2020, John Denhardt via Sprinklerforum <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > wrote: I am unaware of any language that would support the fire inspector’s position. Thanks, John John August Denhardt, P.E. Vice President Engineering and Technical Services American Fire Sprinkler Association 301.343.1457 - Mobile From: Sprinklerforum <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > On Behalf Of Matthew J Willis via Sprinklerforum Sent: Wednesday, January 15, 2020 10:00 AM To: [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> Cc: Matthew J Willis <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > Subject: RE: [EXTERNAL] Pipe adjacent to duct Educate him. Use your charm. R/ Matt From: Sprinklerforum <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > On Behalf Of Travis Mack via Sprinklerforum Sent: Wednesday, January 15, 2020 7:16 AM To: [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> Cc: Travis Mack <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >; Prahl, Craig/GVL <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] Pipe adjacent to duct No seismic. No insulation. Travis Mack, CFPS, CWBSP, RME-G, SET 480-505-9271 x700 MFP Design, LLC www.mfpdesign,com <https://urldefense.com/v3/__http:/www.mfpdesign,com__;!!B5cixuoO7ltTeg!Tdw2ycxMiEifeqPnNsaU3pOz4u4u_cZUe_St-0mFZXtsxNpCFWlsOvaona7aUKCG7Q$> Send large files to MFP Design via: https://www.hightail.com/u/MFPDesign <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.hightail.com/u/MFPDesign__;!!B5cixuoO7ltTeg!Tdw2ycxMiEifeqPnNsaU3pOz4u4u_cZUe_St-0mFZXtsxNpCFWlsOvaona4GLVqxWQ$> Sent from my iPhone On Jan 15, 2020, at 7:12 AM, Prahl, Craig/GVL via Sprinklerforum <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > wrote: Could it be related to seismic movement of unrestrained ductwork against the FP pipe? When you say ductwork, is that ½” between pipe and insulation or actual sheet metal? Craig Prahl | Jacobs | Group Lead/SME – Fire Protection | 864.676.5252 | <mailto:[email protected]> [email protected] | <http://www.jacobs.com/> www.jacobs.com 1041 East Butler Road Greenville, South Carolina 29606 From: Sprinklerforum <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > On Behalf Of Travis Mack via Sprinklerforum Sent: Wednesday, January 15, 2020 8:54 AM To: <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > Cc: Travis Mack <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > Subject: [EXTERNAL] Pipe adjacent to duct We have a project where the fire inspector is stating that the fire sprinkler main is too close to ductwork. There is a 6” main that is about 1/2” from the ductwork. Of course, the inspectors response is “it’s in the code book” when asking for a reference that mandates clearance to hvac ductwork. Has anyone run into something similar? Note: this is not a high temp duct that would cause for enough heat to convert the sprinkler water to steam. This is just your standard, run of the mill, HVAC system. Travis Mack, CFPS, CWBSP, RME-G, SET 480-505-9271 x700 MFP Design, LLC www.mfpdesign,com <https://urldefense.com/v3/__http:/www.mfpdesign,com__;!!B5cixuoO7ltTeg!Tdw2ycxMiEifeqPnNsaU3pOz4u4u_cZUe_St-0mFZXtsxNpCFWlsOvaona7aUKCG7Q$> Send large files to MFP Design via: https://www.hightail.com/u/MFPDesign <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.hightail.com/u/MFPDesign__;!!B5cixuoO7ltTeg!VcjF30iEaFuEx1cvHWPEx0GwlCXjsi62_q06GNj_cf6hxAEmmhx_JZyYbSEuPjBOcw$> Sent from my iPhone _____ NOTICE - This communication may contain confidential and privileged information that is for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any viewing, copying or distribution of, or reliance on this message by unintended recipients is strictly prohibited. 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