Perhaps they will accept what NFPA 13 states..
NFPA 13-2016 edition shows the size requirements 24.1.3* Size of Fire Mains. 24.1.3.1 Except as provided in 24.1.3.2 or 24.1.3.3, no pipe smaller than 6 in. (150 mm) in diameter shall be installed as a private service main. 24.1.3.2 For mains that do not supply hydrants, sizes smaller than 6 in. (150 mm) shall be permitted to be used subject to the following restrictions: (1) The main supplies only automatic sprinkler systems, open sprinkler systems, water spray fixed systems, foam systems, or Class II standpipe systems. (2) Hydraulic calculations show that the main will supply the total demand at the appropriate pressure. Systems that are not hydraulically calculated shall have a main at least as large as the system riser. 24.1.3.3 Where a single main less than 4 in. (100 mm) in diameter serves both fire systems and other uses, the non-fire demand shall be added to the hydraulic calculations for the fire system at the point of connection unless provisions have been made to automatically isolate the non-fire demand during a fire event. 24.1.3.2 (2) above shows that hydraulic calculations can be used to lower the pipe size. Unless they have an ordinance that specifically changes this requirement then they must go with what NFPA 13 states. Anthony Carrizosa Project Manager | Fire Protection 7855 S 206th St Kent, WA 98032 Cell: 206-679-5283 | Office: 253-872-7222 https://archerconstruction.com <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2farcherconstruction.com% 2f&c=E,1,Wdb65AWzMgSBzW3HDw91SfcRQCtxDUQKoJf-UowQ-WnB_WMosgG-8W7eLePJ42PwWQv LiQx16Pls052VqwHO7tKm-_u5AnWly0ewkNiMkxn-AjQb1JI,&typo=1> From: Spencer Tomlinson <spen...@tomlinsonfire.com> Sent: Wednesday, March 18, 2020 12:09 PM To: Travis Mack, SET, CFPS, CWBSP, RME-G <tm...@mfpdesign.com>; 'Steve Leyton' <st...@protectiondesign.com>; sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Minimum Lead-in Sizing Some AHJ's have misinterpreted the tables in Chapter 10 of NFPA 13, because the different standards listed give sizes of 4" -- ---___ Spencer Tomlinson Principal, PE Ph: 316-202-6412 Fax: 316-202-2346 Cell: 620-955-7293 www.tomlinsonfire.com <http://www.tomlinsonfire.com/> From: Travis Mack, SET, CFPS, CWBSP, RME-G <tm...@mfpdesign.com <mailto:tm...@mfpdesign.com> > Sent: Wednesday, March 18, 2020 12:59 PM To: Spencer Tomlinson <spen...@tomlinsonfire.com <mailto:spen...@tomlinsonfire.com> >; 'Steve Leyton' <st...@protectiondesign.com <mailto:st...@protectiondesign.com> >; sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org <mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> Subject: RE: Minimum Lead-in Sizing Where is he even reading a 4" minimum? I don't see that in NFPA 24 at all. 6" min if serving hydrants. If serving sprinkler system, then must just calc to prove. <http://www.mfpdesign.com/> Travis Mack, CFPS, CWBSP, RME-G, SET MFP Design, LLC 3356 E Vallejo Ct Gilbert, AZ 85298 NEW EXTENSION: 480-505-9271 ext. 700 fax: 866-430-6107 <mailto:tm...@mfpdesign.com> tm...@mfpdesign.com www.mfpdesign.com <http://www.mfpdesign.com> Send large files to us via: <https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.highta il.com%2Fu%2FMFPDesign&data=02%7C01%7C%7C1121d49f9e6b4cf248f108d4df580e77%7C 14e5497c16da42e69ffa77d19bafe511%7C0%7C0%7C636379016677342180&sdata=eGdMZGu2 wXhUupGwgGTrqF3b54OP5%2BAZvlHhABSexWY%3D&reserved=0> https://www.hightail.com/u/MFPDesign LinkedIn: <https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.linked in.com%2Fin%2Ftravismack&data=02%7C01%7C%7C1121d49f9e6b4cf248f108d4df580e77% 7C14e5497c16da42e69ffa77d19bafe511%7C0%7C0%7C636379016677342180&sdata=tT5E7L sZjSmyreKi4gDCa70EWN%2BZodi%2FhbeCbHNRijI%3D&reserved=0> https://www.linkedin.com/in/travismack "The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten." From: Spencer Tomlinson <spen...@tomlinsonfire.com <mailto:spen...@tomlinsonfire.com> > Sent: Wednesday, March 18, 2020 10:53 AM To: Steve Leyton <st...@protectiondesign.com <mailto:st...@protectiondesign.com> >; sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org <mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> Cc: Travis Mack, SET, CFPS, CWBSP, RME-G <tm...@mfpdesign.com <mailto:tm...@mfpdesign.com> > Subject: RE: Minimum Lead-in Sizing Yes sir - of the exact same opinion, as well as Matt's "what does it matter"- since it will calc without issue. It's never been my opinion that a minimum 4" is required anyway, since it's not explicitly stated, and the only limitation on pipe sizing being explicitly stated in Chapter 23. Was hoping maybe one of the tech committee folks out there may share an experience that a 4" minimum is not the intent, and it's just AHJ misinterpretation by looking at ductile/cement lined/plastic pipe tables in Chapter 10. I've got what I need in the agreements from those that responded - thanks as always! Spencer Tomlinson Principal, PE Ph: 316-202-6412 Fax: 316-202-2346 Cell: 620-955-7293 www.tomlinsonfire.com <http://www.tomlinsonfire.com/> From: Steve Leyton <st...@protectiondesign.com <mailto:st...@protectiondesign.com> > Sent: Wednesday, March 18, 2020 12:35 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org <mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> Cc: Travis Mack, SET, CFPS, CWBSP, RME-G <tm...@mfpdesign.com <mailto:tm...@mfpdesign.com> >; Spencer Tomlinson <spen...@tomlinsonfire.com <mailto:spen...@tomlinsonfire.com> > Subject: RE: Minimum Lead-in Sizing What TMack said. "Please show me in the standard or code where that provision resides." Then show them the new listed in-building riser sweeps from Ames that go down to 2". SL From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Travis Mack, SET, CFPS, CWBSP, RME-G via Sprinklerforum Sent: Wednesday, March 18, 2020 10:32 AM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org <mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> Cc: Travis Mack, SET, CFPS, CWBSP, RME-G <tm...@mfpdesign.com <mailto:tm...@mfpdesign.com> >; 'Spencer Tomlinson' <spen...@tomlinsonfire.com <mailto:spen...@tomlinsonfire.com> > Subject: RE: Minimum Lead-in Sizing What is the reference for a minimum 4"? We've had several smaller than that over my career. Never had an issue that I know of. <http://www.mfpdesign.com/> Travis Mack, CFPS, CWBSP, RME-G, SET MFP Design, LLC 3356 E Vallejo Ct Gilbert, AZ 85298 NEW EXTENSION: 480-505-9271 ext. 700 fax: 866-430-6107 <mailto:tm...@mfpdesign.com> tm...@mfpdesign.com www.mfpdesign.com <http://www.mfpdesign.com> Send large files to us via: <https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.highta il.com%2Fu%2FMFPDesign&data=02%7C01%7C%7C1121d49f9e6b4cf248f108d4df580e77%7C 14e5497c16da42e69ffa77d19bafe511%7C0%7C0%7C636379016677342180&sdata=eGdMZGu2 wXhUupGwgGTrqF3b54OP5%2BAZvlHhABSexWY%3D&reserved=0> https://www.hightail.com/u/MFPDesign LinkedIn: <https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.linked in.com%2Fin%2Ftravismack&data=02%7C01%7C%7C1121d49f9e6b4cf248f108d4df580e77% 7C14e5497c16da42e69ffa77d19bafe511%7C0%7C0%7C636379016677342180&sdata=tT5E7L sZjSmyreKi4gDCa70EWN%2BZodi%2FhbeCbHNRijI%3D&reserved=0> https://www.linkedin.com/in/travismack "The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten." From: Sprinklerforum <sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org <mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org> > On Behalf Of Spencer Tomlinson via Sprinklerforum Sent: Wednesday, March 18, 2020 10:30 AM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org <mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> Cc: Spencer Tomlinson <spen...@tomlinsonfire.com <mailto:spen...@tomlinsonfire.com> > Subject: Minimum Lead-in Sizing Hi all - I've got a customer that's in a pinch and I'm trying to help them out. They have a 2" lead in supplying an existing building, mixed use commercial/residential. NFPA 13 protection on 2 floors. The 2" will actually calculate as it sits. My question for those that have run into the "minimum pipe size is 4" requirement from an AHJ before, on a 13 system, what argument have you used to contradict the statement? The ASTM standards listed in the underground piping tables of 13 for brass, copper, and stainless piping all include/cover pipe sizes smaller than 4". Section 23.4.1.3 (2016 edition) states that pipe sizing shall only be limited by available water supply. Any other good arguments out there? Spencer Tomlinson Principal, PE Ph: 316-202-6412 Fax: 316-202-2346 Cell: 620-955-7293 www.tomlinsonfire.com <http://www.tomlinsonfire.com/>
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