It’s one of the unintended consequences of government - at any level.  
Unfortunately, the only way to possibly effect improvement is to present 
grievances to superiors, then to the city council if necessary.  Good luck and 
keep us updated.

From: Sprinklerforum <sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org> On Behalf 
Of Travis Mack, SET, CFPS, CWBSP, RME-G via Sprinklerforum
Sent: Thursday, May 21, 2020 1:46 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org; 'John Drucker' 
<john.druc...@verizon.net>
Cc: Travis Mack, SET, CFPS, CWBSP, RME-G <tm...@mfpdesign.com>; Mitchell, Scott 
<scott.mitch...@cns.doe.gov>
Subject: RE: [External] Re: I-B construction - ABS plumbing piping

Here is the latest on this:

Inspector is going to require a data cabling drawing showing all of the cables 
dispersed through the school.  He then wants an FPE to sign off that the amount 
of cabling is not an issue to trigger the requirement to sprinkler the 
concealed space.

A bit more was learned.  It is not plenum rated cable and the inspector wanted 
plenum rated cable, as I understand it.  So, by forcing sprinklers, it makes 
the issue of plenum rated cable go away.  I may not have that fully understood 
as it was a 4th party conversation relay.  But, it seems, as usual, there is a 
lot more to the story.  The inspector is still really pushing that the 
concealed space needs sprinklers.

However, if this all goes away as not being required, this is where I feel that 
the AHJ should be held for monetary damages they cause.  For all that have been 
involved and the man hours dedicated to it, they have cost several thousands of 
$$ with zero repercussions.   This is one of my major pet peeves.


From: Sprinklerforum 
<sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org>>
 On Behalf Of Travis Mack via Sprinklerforum
Sent: Thursday, May 21, 2020 6:26 AM
To: John Drucker <john.druc...@verizon.net<mailto:john.druc...@verizon.net>>
Cc: Travis Mack <tm...@mfpdesign.com<mailto:tm...@mfpdesign.com>>; 
sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>;
 Mitchell, Scott <scott.mitch...@cns.doe.gov<mailto:scott.mitch...@cns.doe.gov>>
Subject: Re: [External] Re: I-B construction - ABS plumbing piping

The appeal process is in place as well. The problem is the sprinkler contractor 
is being threatened with liquidated damages if the inspector won’t allow cover 
today in a particular area.

This is where badge heavy inspectors become a real problem. The inspector 
states he will accept only 3 options:

1 - there can only be a single ABS pipe and no other combustibles in the area.

2 - He will allow ABS and data cabling if a FPE will provide the maximum 
quantities of combustibles in the space since NFPA is vague. He wants a way to 
quantify the quantities. The contractor is arguing it is impossible for the 
sprinkler to police the quantities of other trades and to quantify them.

3 - provide full upright protection across the 280k sq ft space above the 
ceiling, including redesign and calculations.  Beams are about 10’ on center 
and 28” deep plus fireproofing. So, the best they can get is 150 sq ft per 
sprinkler. It will likely average out at 100 or so. The GC is trying to state 
the sprinkler contractor would have to absorb the added costs.

All of this for some ABS vent piping and typical data cabling you see in a 
school.

I have a feeling this one is going to get pretty ugly.
Travis Mack, SET
Engineering Manager
MFP Design
tm...@mfpdesign.com<mailto:tm...@mfpdesign.com>
travis.m...@ferguson.com<mailto:travis.m...@ferguson.com>
480-505-9271 x700
NEW MOBILE : (480) 272-2471

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On May 21, 2020, at 6:15 AM, John Drucker 
<john.druc...@verizon.net<mailto:john.druc...@verizon.net>> wrote:

Or as in many jurisdictions, file an appeal.

John Drucker

________________________________
From: Sprinklerforum 
<sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org>>
 on behalf of Travis Mack via Sprinklerforum 
<sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>>
Sent: Thursday, May 21, 2020 09:01
To: 
sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>
Cc: Travis Mack; Mitchell, Scott
Subject: Re: [External] Re: I-B construction - ABS plumbing piping

That is processing 👍🏼

Travis Mack, SET
Engineering Manager
MFP Design
tm...@mfpdesign.com<mailto:tm...@mfpdesign.com>
travis.m...@ferguson.com<mailto:travis.m...@ferguson.com>
480-505-9271 x700
NEW MOBILE : (480) 272-2471

Send large files to us via: 
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On May 21, 2020, at 6:00 AM, Mitchell, Scott via Sprinklerforum 
<sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>>
 wrote:

You might try an informal interpretation from John August Denhart and company.  
☺

Scott Mitchell

From: Sprinklerforum 
<sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org>>
 On Behalf Of J H via Sprinklerforum
Sent: Wednesday, May 20, 2020 11:43 PM
To: 
sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>
Cc: J H <design.azfire...@gmail.com<mailto:design.azfire...@gmail.com>>
Subject: [External] Re: I-B construction - ABS plumbing piping

You're going to have to get your ammo, your formal interpretations and get an 
audience with the little princess's boss - the king

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On Wed, May 20, 2020 at 5:46 PM Rod DiBona via Sprinklerforum 
<sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>>
 wrote:
Maybe look at the contract for dispute resolution. Hopefully push past the GC 
to the owner for  their decision before it goes to mediation etc. Check the 
contract that the GC has with the owner that the sprinkler sub is likely tied 
to. May be a case where this tie helps. At the end of the day the owner pays 
the bill. Would help to understand the GC’s contract. Is it a firm fixed? GC 
plus fee? How is the contingency money handled? Split with the GC? 100% back to 
owner. I would know these things before going this route. Good luck, this 
clearly isn’t right.


Rod DiBona
Chief Operating Officer
R.F.P.G
Rapid Fire Protection Group
1530 Samco Road
Rapid City, SD 57702
Office-605-348-2342
Cell- 605-391-3553
www.rapidfireinc.com<http://www.rapidfireinc.com/>

<image001.jpg>
<image002.jpg>




From: Sprinklerforum 
<sprinklerforum-boun...@listsfiresprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org>>
 On Behalf Of Travis Mack, SET, CFPS, CWBSP, RME-G via Sprinklerforum
Sent: Wednesday, May 20, 2020 6:36 PM
To: 
sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>
Cc: Travis Mack, SET, CFPS, CWBSP, RME-G 
<tm...@mfpdesign.com<mailto:tm...@mfpdesign.com>>; 'Matt Grise' 
<m...@afpsprink.com<mailto:m...@afpsprink.com>>; 'Rocci 3 Cetani' 
<roc...@norcalfire.com<mailto:roc...@norcalfire.com>>
Subject: RE: I-B construction - ABS plumbing piping

Seems like we have an AHJ not backing down. We had the reviewing engineer for 
the sprinkler plans write a letter stating that the criteria is in compliance 
with NFPA and that limited quantities of combustibles are permitted above the 
ceiling and still classify it as non-combustible.  This is data cabling and 
waste vent piping that the inspector is drawing a line in the sand to provide 
protection above the ceilings of a large high school.  I have been working 
getting informal interpretations from various entities to support our position.

GC is telling sprinkler contractor it was design build so no change order.  
But, specs say to put sprinklers above ceiling if structure is combustible or 
if steel beams are not fire proofed.  In this project, the steel beams are fire 
proofed.  The contract “intent” drawings call out to add sprinklers below 
stairs if combustible but no where else in the project.  There is nothing to 
indicate sprinklers would be required above the ceilings.  A similar school 
built the next jurisdiction over does not have sprinklers above the ceiling.  I 
have been told other projects in this jurisdiction have the same construction 
and same situation with no sprinklers above the ceiling.  One of them 
referenced is a hospital.  I’m sure the data cabling in a hospital is far 
greater than a high school.

This one is going to get interesting.  And probably pretty ugly.

From: Sprinklerforum 
<sprinklerforum-boun...@listsfiresprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org>>
 On Behalf Of Travis Mack, SET, CFPS, CWBSP, RME-G via Sprinklerforum
Sent: Tuesday, May 19, 2020 2:55 PM
To: 
sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>
Cc: Travis Mack, SET, CFPS, CWBSP, RME-G 
<tm...@mfpdesign.com<mailto:tm...@mfpdesign.com>>; 'Matt Grise' 
<m...@afpsprink.com<mailto:m...@afpsprink.com>>; 'Rocci 3 Cetani' 
<roc...@norcalfire.com<mailto:roc...@norcalfire.com>>
Subject: RE: I-B construction - ABS plumbing piping

Yeah.  That is the conundrum we are in.

From: Sprinklerforum 
<sprinklerforum-boun...@listsfiresprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org>>
 On Behalf Of Rocci 3 Cetani via Sprinklerforum
Sent: Tuesday, May 19, 2020 2:55 PM
To: 
sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>
Cc: Rocci 3 Cetani <roc...@norcalfire.com<mailto:roc...@norcalfire.com>>; Matt 
Grise <m...@afpsprink.com<mailto:m...@afpsprink.com>>
Subject: RE: I-B construction - ABS plumbing piping

Only problem is its vague and I think the committee did that on purpose. “minor 
quantities”  is up for too much interpretation

Rocci Cetani III, CET
Senior Designer
Water-Based Fire Protections Systems Layout, Nicet Level III

Northern California Fire Protection Services Inc.
16840 Joleen Way Bldg. A
Morgan Hill, CA 93037
P-(408) 776-1580 EXT.1010
F-(408) 776-1590


roc...@norcalfire.com<mailto:roc...@norcalfire.com>
www.norcalfire.com<http://www.norcalfire.com/>

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From: Sprinklerforum 
<sprinklerforum-boun...@listsfiresprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org>>
 On Behalf Of Matt Grise via Sprinklerforum
Sent: Tuesday, May 19, 2020 2:52 PM
To: 
sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>
Cc: Matt Grise <m...@afpsprink.com<mailto:m...@afpsprink.com>>
Subject: RE: I-B construction - ABS plumbing piping

The NFPA13 annex and handbook address this directly.

NFPA 13 A8.15.1.2.1 “minor quantities of combustible materials such as but not 
limited to cabling, nonmetallic plumbing piping… …should not typically be 
viewed as requiring sprinklers.”

Matt


From: Sprinklerforum 
<sprinklerforum-boun...@listsfiresprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org>>
 On Behalf Of Travis Mack, SET, CFPS, CWBSP, RME-G via Sprinklerforum
Sent: Tuesday, May 19, 2020 4:39 PM
To: 
sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>
Cc: Travis Mack, SET, CFPS, CWBSP, RME-G 
<tm...@mfpdesign.com<mailto:tm...@mfpdesign.com>>
Subject: I-B construction - ABS plumbing piping

We have a fairly good sized school project. Plumber ran ABS drain piping.  
Electrician has some cabling not in conduit.  Inspector is stating the space is 
now combustible and requires sprinklers above all ceiling areas.  Has anyone 
run into this and how was it resolved?

Drawings and specs do not indicate sprinklers required above ceiling spaces.  
But the GC is trying to force it down the contractor’s throat if it is required 
and of course it is now holding up the job.

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Travis Mack, CFPS, CWBSP, RME-G, SET
Engineering Manager
MFP Design
3356 E Vallejo Ct
Gilbert, AZ 85298
NEW EXTENSION: 480-505-9271 ext. 700
NEW MOBILE: 480-272-2471
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