Matt, For what it’s worth (probably less than $0.02), I agree with you that it should provide an equivalent level of protection to be, say 5’-6” off of the wall as it would be if you were 11’-0” between sprinkler heads due to some obstruction. I suppose someone could make a strong argument that this isn’t true unless the next row of sprinkler heads is only 9’-0” away to create the average spacing of 100 square feet.
But I agree with your premise, “how can it possibly be worse than if there was an obstruction present?” You’ve got to take some risks (i.e. “liability” oooooohhhh) sometimes because there are grey areas of the code open to interpretation. I say the goal of a successful organization is not to eliminate risk, it’s to decide what is the maximum they are willing to accept, and then get right up to it that limit. Unless you’re a consultant playing with someone else’s money. 😉 So, is this a grey area of the code that your willing to step into? Because I would be willing to bet that no one here can make a convincing argument that you are creating at deficient system by doing what you are describing. Although I’d like to hear more opinions. -Kyle M From: Sprinklerforum <sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org> On Behalf Of Matt Grise via Sprinklerforum Sent: Friday, May 29, 2020 4:49 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Cc: Matt Grise <m...@afpsprink.com> Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: ESFR spacing I may have mis-stated the scenario. The sprinklers along the wall would be 5-0 from the wall as allowed by code. The next line of sprinklers would be 10-9 away, with 9' spacing along the line as allowed by code...if the line was moved to accommodate an obstruction. What the code is saying is literally that this setup would be allowed (safer?) if I went back and added an obstruction to force the line shift. That does not seem logical. It sounds more like a quirk of the wording that was adopted when the code was written or perhaps an old "that's the way it was always done" similar to the system size limitations. Clearly someone thought - and is willing to stand behind - the spacing if an obstruction is present. Would the system become less safe or non-code compliant if we went back and removed the obstruction after installation? Matt ________________________________ From: Sprinklerforum <sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org>> on behalf of Skyler Bilbo via Sprinklerforum <sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>> Sent: Friday, May 29, 2020 6:18 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> <sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>> Cc: Skyler Bilbo <sbi...@wenteplumbing.com<mailto:sbi...@wenteplumbing.com>> Subject: Re: ESFR spacing Any argument to what should be equivalent to the standard doesn't matter if the standard blatantly doesn't allow it (unless you are a PE and want to sign off on it, and get the AHJ to do so, as well). Feel free to try and change the standard. By your logic, you could take the small room rule, which would apply in a 16 ft x 50 ft room and say that it will also apply in a 31 ft by 50 ft room. But it doesn't apply (the room is too big), even though the situation is similar. I think the center of what you are trying to argue is that a fire that starts against a wall, as opposed to the middle of the room, between two lines of sprinklers, will set off fewer sprinklers, closer to the fire. If you would like to pay for the testing, prove it out, and forever change how we space sprinklers off a wall, go ahead. In the meantime, you cannot blatantly go against one very specific section of the standard (sprinkler spacing off a wall) by loosely applying a shift allowed for an obstruction between two rows of sprinklers. If you do decide to try and change the standard, please make it so that we can apply the small room rule everywhere as well (9 feet off every wall!)... Skyler Bilbo [https://docs.google.com/uc?export=download&id=1Ot_QzTy6mc49_wnkJ-aKoPIBtkivO1gI&revid=0B1MzybbUMAWgNWRUNW03MkcyNkh4c0d4VXZMS0ZuQ2cvVzlFPQ] 1700 S. Raney Street Effingham, IL 62401 217-819-6404 Direct 217-347-7315 Fax sbi...@wenteplumbing.com<mailto:sbi...@wenteplumbing.com> www.wenteplumbing.com<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__linkprotect.cudasvc.com_url-3Fa-3Dhttp-253a-252f-252fwww.wenteplumbing.com-26c-3DE-2C1-2CkMBIvj0RHolH-5FCFu2no3qCz8YEWk16aumxKRlqwB5DNCS6zZmkuAddI-5FHsMwb2Ww4g1LroNROTCSc22nnMAlDagsicCiCl6aocnpCkJG-26typo-3D1&d=DwMF-g&c=wn3mZQLIuInh2ClcJ0_DIA&r=Z_2A85VL7AQzoqudh6uOyS3bn8etxB7nLN8OBJwQd9A&m=jSTSLar-wqdPpelMfQPufoagJJdHyPYDkmx4Kb3d8qA&s=hAj3xDglAZm2HX231CR7RD7I6qGglnSwpzjXFr3EU7w&e=> **new** www.beplumb.com<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__linkprotect.cudasvc.com_url-3Fa-3Dhttp-253a-252f-252fwww.beplumb.com-26c-3DE-2C1-2CuTJVv8AeVanqKuHXzaFjI9wzzgZ3T8k29FQXIOkpP4RN00vYCMi7GG7gnnLkYho6yPQz0On9bm9xuNBFL1gcfFn4solxJFLH871aD-2DLiPlKB5A-2C-2C-26typo-3D1&d=DwMF-g&c=wn3mZQLIuInh2ClcJ0_DIA&r=Z_2A85VL7AQzoqudh6uOyS3bn8etxB7nLN8OBJwQd9A&m=jSTSLar-wqdPpelMfQPufoagJJdHyPYDkmx4Kb3d8qA&s=a9MH1ZJud7ZNuV5fTfFrr7am-4XjpApVQV59GOlXu8M&e=> Like us on facebook <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.facebook.com_justbeplumb&d=DwMF-g&c=wn3mZQLIuInh2ClcJ0_DIA&r=Z_2A85VL7AQzoqudh6uOyS3bn8etxB7nLN8OBJwQd9A&m=jSTSLar-wqdPpelMfQPufoagJJdHyPYDkmx4Kb3d8qA&s=0ipsK8ly-jVAChUqBtS42FFHk4wAIHrlvEXzhJ8UtAQ&e=> for updates On Fri, May 29, 2020 at 5:04 PM Matt Grise via Sprinklerforum <sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>> wrote: The situations causing the shift are not the same, but would the resulting protection level be the same or better? If it is ok to shift the sprinklers for an obstruction, is the protection less effective to shift without an obstruction? Matt From: Sprinklerforum <sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org>> On Behalf Of Skyler Bilbo via Sprinklerforum Sent: Friday, May 29, 2020 4:58 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> Cc: Skyler Bilbo <sbi...@wenteplumbing.com<mailto:sbi...@wenteplumbing.com>> Subject: Re: ESFR spacing Matt, My main concern with your application would be that the section you are referring to doesn't apply to the situation you are describing. You can't apply a rule to spacing off a wall that is meant for offsetting a line due to an obstruction. Two different sections/situations. You say you are within the spacing rules, so your ceiling height must be under 30 feet (to allow up to 12 foot spacing) and your protection area must be less than 100 square feet. Otherwise, it sounds like you will need to add a line of sprinklers. Skyler Bilbo [https://docs.google.com/uc?export=download&id=1Ot_QzTy6mc49_wnkJ-aKoPIBtkivO1gI&revid=0B1MzybbUMAWgNWRUNW03MkcyNkh4c0d4VXZMS0ZuQ2cvVzlFPQ] 1700 S. Raney Street Effingham, IL 62401 217-819-6404 Direct 217-347-7315 Fax sbi...@wenteplumbing.com<mailto:sbi...@wenteplumbing.com> www.wenteplumbing.com<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__linkprotect.cudasvc.com_url-3Fa-3Dhttp-253a-252f-252fwww.wenteplumbing.com-26c-3DE-2C1-2CfMOJw-2Du9vO1cg2hQ70XOiDVI5HOly82F-5FVAfD1uIna8ShJw4st0wpSq11Ktj3z-2DJgwCVem-2DHbVCX4I9PFqrsiwVUCVJz4oZoM-5FTAkMl0jZdRAfaWKW6Bcv1OYEmo-26typo-3D1&d=DwMF-g&c=wn3mZQLIuInh2ClcJ0_DIA&r=Z_2A85VL7AQzoqudh6uOyS3bn8etxB7nLN8OBJwQd9A&m=jSTSLar-wqdPpelMfQPufoagJJdHyPYDkmx4Kb3d8qA&s=zXsQQjv9vyIf--zeclxvLOmewP75vmbPKq59ZL3qIAM&e=> **new** www.beplumb.com<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__linkprotect.cudasvc.com_url-3Fa-3Dhttp-253a-252f-252fwww.beplumb.com-26c-3DE-2C1-2C9gFtBXS3ytL8pTkU2xdZlYzI4c1hRGIkZu4MBn7vLI-5F4FxajPMdpBsvxfsyVi-2DNYlpiaOwZ-5FObRIGoRHpTTlOs0yZltoHH6X-5FSFW-5FABSaSO55Q-2C-2C-26typo-3D1&d=DwMF-g&c=wn3mZQLIuInh2ClcJ0_DIA&r=Z_2A85VL7AQzoqudh6uOyS3bn8etxB7nLN8OBJwQd9A&m=jSTSLar-wqdPpelMfQPufoagJJdHyPYDkmx4Kb3d8qA&s=0FLJ1QLHmmVwAq0SYX4pev80pzXY__Tn64npJQFZMkc&e=> Like us on facebook <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.facebook.com_justbeplumb&d=DwMF-g&c=wn3mZQLIuInh2ClcJ0_DIA&r=Z_2A85VL7AQzoqudh6uOyS3bn8etxB7nLN8OBJwQd9A&m=jSTSLar-wqdPpelMfQPufoagJJdHyPYDkmx4Kb3d8qA&s=0ipsK8ly-jVAChUqBtS42FFHk4wAIHrlvEXzhJ8UtAQ&e=> for updates On Fri, May 29, 2020 at 4:33 PM Matt Grise via Sprinklerforum <sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>> wrote: NFPA13 talks about shifting ESFR heads to avoid obstructions, but is there any concern with moving them when there is not an obstruction (within the spacing rules). We have a situation where a small wall bump-out effectively spaces some ESFR heads over 10’, but less than 11’ – along with all of the other requirements. The spacing shift meets all of the NFPA 13 guidelines, except that there is no obstruction that causes it. Are there any concerns with an application like that? It seems like it would perform as well or better than if there WAS an obstruction…. Thanks! Matt _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__linkprotect.cudasvc.com_url-3Fa-3Dhttp-253a-252f-252flists.firesprinkler.org-252flistinfo.cgi-252fsprinklerforum-2Dfiresprinkler.org-26c-3DE-2C1-2C-5Fzw39OmJiH9r7e6B-5FXatZAmevw3-5FrqkeRLMZ-2DKk-2DzSrUSX7wNcjRDcaOykoMc-2D0ZLpUUKWyDODx3dT44C-2Djcq9CHQtQkiDQ0kh4kMAbkPwNLhYBK-26typo-3D1&d=DwMF-g&c=wn3mZQLIuInh2ClcJ0_DIA&r=Z_2A85VL7AQzoqudh6uOyS3bn8etxB7nLN8OBJwQd9A&m=jSTSLar-wqdPpelMfQPufoagJJdHyPYDkmx4Kb3d8qA&s=suw3Omzja5wfedFsyYk6u3YVNSiOuZbCzC3Fvkb47XQ&e=> _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__linkprotect.cudasvc.com_url-3Fa-3Dhttp-253a-252f-252flists.firesprinkler.org-252flistinfo.cgi-252fsprinklerforum-2Dfiresprinkler.org-26c-3DE-2C1-2CErtP3kvUn4WC6C6J7XubmATTKXf-5FpfoZnquxBkmRssWegAtHAzm-2D7omLw0v-2DMDhYpyXmDv6em-5F9lCMikJU2kzZUtmt4-2DZ52dGBmDc8-2DfLQE-2C-26typo-3D1&d=DwMF-g&c=wn3mZQLIuInh2ClcJ0_DIA&r=Z_2A85VL7AQzoqudh6uOyS3bn8etxB7nLN8OBJwQd9A&m=jSTSLar-wqdPpelMfQPufoagJJdHyPYDkmx4Kb3d8qA&s=6aiVP5xiqzj9-olLkCBs1lnYe1Wv0EoGHeDlgNlpyNY&e=>
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