Perhaps my response appeared to imply the 2500 gpm demand would be required. It did not. I was merely inferring that consideration of additional domestic flow still needs consideration IMO. I agree with Ron that this would be a total fire (and domestic) flow determined by the water purveyor/civil engineer in accordance with applicable infrastructure design requirements such as IFC 2015 Section 507.1 which states, "Required water supply. An approved water supply capable of supplying the required fire flow for fire protection shall be provided to premises upon which facilities, buildings or portions of buildings are hereafter constructed or moved into or within the jurisdiction" or recommendations from IFC Appendix B.
The water purveyor/civil engineer still needs to determine and account for a reasonable domestic demand flow (where supplied from the same source) at minimum plumbing code residual pressures (likely above 20 psi) to the overall water loop design. Sprinkler designers should not be generating this demand. If they are asked, they should push back. Ryan L. Hinson, PE*, SET** \ Burns & McDonnell Senior Fire Protection Engineer O 952-656-3662 \ M 763-688-4045 \ F 952-229-2923 [email protected] \ burnsmcd.com 8201 Norman Center Drive, Suite 500 \ Minneapolis-St. Paul, MN 55437 *Registered in: LA, MD, MN, PA, TX, & UT **NICET IV - Water-Based Systems Layout -----Original Message----- From: Sprinklerforum <[email protected]> On Behalf Of Ron Greenman via Sprinklerforum Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2020 11:19 AM To: [email protected] Cc: Ron Greenman <[email protected]> Subject: Re: Domestic Demands 13R My understanding of this is that the complex would have had a total fire flow and domestic flow calculated into the main loop by the Civil Engineer (his job) and the complex loop is tied into the city grid at two points. Then only dead ends need to be calculated with the domestic being added at the junction/split with the domestic and then out to the loop. Ron Greenman [email protected] 253.576.9700 The Universe is monstrously indifferent to the presence of man. -Werner Herzog, screenwriter, film director, author, actor and opera director (1942-) On Thu, Nov 12, 2020 at 9:03 AM Travis Mack via Sprinklerforum < [email protected]> wrote: > It is a new complex. I agree with #1 for sure. #2, while I see the > logic, it just seems like that is way overkill for a project. > Including a > 2500 gpm domestic demand in a site loop really seems excessive. If it > were a 13 system, you would include a 100 gpm and wouldn't even > consider the other buildings on the site. That is where the rationale > of including all seems to escape. > > Again, we have AHJ's requesting both ways. I am wondering how others > handle it and what you have run up against. > > > Travis Mack, CFPS, CWBSP, RME-G, SET > Engineering Manager > MFP Design > 3356 E Vallejo Ct > Gilbert, AZ 85298 > NEW EXTENSION: 480-505-9271 ext. 700 > NEW MOBILE: 480-272-2471 > mailto:[email protected] > https://nam05.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.m > fpdesign.com%2F&data=04%7C01%7Crhinson%40burnsmcd.com%7C9c91628183 > a8418eca7e08d8872f1f06%7Cbfbb9a2b6d994e78b3c795005d555c8b%7C0%7C1%7C63 > 7407983739031746%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV > 2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C2000&sdata=dmjex6fcSyXO9FP > uZQWAxEatX9%2Fmy0xAMDkKVdL2gW0%3D&reserved=0 > > Send large files to us via: > https://nam05.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww. > hightail.com%2Fu%2FMFPDesign&data=04%7C01%7Crhinson%40burnsmcd.com > %7C9c91628183a8418eca7e08d8872f1f06%7Cbfbb9a2b6d994e78b3c795005d555c8b > %7C0%7C1%7C637407983739041705%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAw > MDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C2000&sdata=U5 > 8IfgaAkctbNutG4p5e8cm5CeN%2Fl%2Baq9Tyet05L4oY%3D&reserved=0 > LinkedIn: > https://nam05.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww. > linkedin.com%2Fin%2Ftravismack&data=04%7C01%7Crhinson%40burnsmcd.c > om%7C9c91628183a8418eca7e08d8872f1f06%7Cbfbb9a2b6d994e78b3c795005d555c > 8b%7C0%7C1%7C637407983739041705%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLj > AwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C2000&sdata= > OMFTEyg%2BUToKX0uWQzvLQbXWz0BDDnjKLsM5cUXUM3w%3D&reserved=0 > > “The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of > low price is forgotten.” > > Need/Want a faster way to check material pricing? Build a material > quote? Check availability ? Searching for an invoice? > *If you do not already have an account with ferguson.com, click > https://nam05.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww. > ferguson.com%2Faccount-registration&data=04%7C01%7Crhinson%40burns > mcd.com%7C9c91628183a8418eca7e08d8872f1f06%7Cbfbb9a2b6d994e78b3c795005d555c8b%7C0%7C1%7C637407983739041705%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C2000&sdata=5K%2BlgfZWDROvIIhzxLuGIMbebRPNfhGrniEevggOSUc%3D&reserved=0 > to register.* **Have a Ferguson account? Download the Ferguson app for > on-the-go access to your favorite ferguson.com features. > https://nam05.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Ffergu > soncommunications.us.newsweaver.com%2Fhq7bgesq7f%2F1qtklpp37l9byeftyuo > y12%2Fexternal%3Femail%3Dtrue%26a%3D6%26p%3D2591775%26t%3D517003&d > ata=04%7C01%7Crhinson%40burnsmcd.com%7C9c91628183a8418eca7e08d8872f1f0 > 6%7Cbfbb9a2b6d994e78b3c795005d555c8b%7C0%7C1%7C637407983739041705%7CUn > known%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haW > wiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C2000&sdata=vD5a%2B6SyYIM%2FzSK0jORhD2ie%2FP12jE > Y4xRQvh%2BQd410%3D&reserved=0 > or > https://nam05.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Ffergu > soncommunications.us.newsweaver.com%2Fhq7bgesq7f%2Fn1gewi5ud95byeftyuo > y12%2Fexternal%3Femail%3Dtrue%26a%3D6%26p%3D2591775%26t%3D517003**& > ;data=04%7C01%7Crhinson%40burnsmcd.com%7C9c91628183a8418eca7e08d8872f1 > f06%7Cbfbb9a2b6d994e78b3c795005d555c8b%7C0%7C1%7C637407983739041705%7C > Unknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1h > aWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C2000&sdata=zDqyVsHxq%2FlRMzh5904%2BUMrurGrPQq > qGYle8F5xqvEg%3D&reserved=0 > > From: Hinson, Ryan <[email protected]> > Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2020 9:59 AM > To: [email protected] > Cc: Travis Mack <[email protected]> > Subject: RE: Domestic Demands 13R > > Is this entire complex brand new or existing? Your answer will > determine > mine: > 1. Taking a water flow test on an existing looped water main supplying > both FW and domestic demands already accounts for the domestic demands > of the other buildings, no? On the single main feeding all the way > into the building in question, one only needs to include the domestic > demand for that building where the domestic is not provided with a > valve preventing domestic flow in the event of a sprinkler activation > therein. NFPA 13R > (2016) Section 9.6 states, "Domestic Demand. Domestic demand for the > building being calculated shall be included as part of the overall > system demand for systems with common domestic/fire mains where no > provisions are made to prevent the domestic waterflow upon sprinkler system > activation." > Key words here are "for the building" and "where no provisions are made". > 2. If the entire loop system supplying both FW and domestic demands is > new and yet to be completed, then provision must be made for > anticipated domestic flows of the other, yet to be occupied buildings as you > indicate. > > My too scents, > > Ryan L. Hinson, PE*, SET** \ Burns & McDonnell Senior Fire > Protection Engineer O 952-656-3662 \ M 763-688-4045 \ F 952-229-2923 > mailto:[email protected] \ burnsmcd.com > 8201 Norman Center Drive, Suite 500 \ Minneapolis-St. Paul, MN 55437 > *Registered in: LA, MD, MN, PA, TX, & UT **NICET IV - Water-Based > Systems Layout > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Sprinklerforum <mailto: > [email protected]> On Behalf Of Travis > Mack via Sprinklerforum > Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2020 10:34 AM > To: mailto:[email protected] > Cc: mailto:[email protected] > Subject: Domestic Demands 13R > > Forumites: > > Per 13R 9.6 it requires the domestic demand for the building being > calculated to be added to the fire sprinkler system. This is generally > not an issue. If you have a complex of say 20 buildings on site that > is supplied by a common water line serving both domestic and fire, are > you required to include the domestic demand for each building on the > site water main. > > For example, if I have a project with a 8" main going through the > complex, and 4" lead-ins to each building, with a domestic demand of > 125 gpm for each building, how are you doing the domestic demand? With > the domestic / fire split in the building, it is required to include > the 125 gpm demand in addition to the fire sprinkler system demand in > the 4" line. Are you including the other 2375 gpm (19 additional > buildings at 125 gpm domestic allowance), in your calculations back to the > city main? > > This seems quite excessive. If it were a 13 system, you would have > similar flows and a 100 gpm hose allowance. There is no requirement in > this example to include the domestic in a 13 system. But, if you are > required to include the additional 2375 gpm, that could be quite taxing on > the site supply. > Again, how is everyone handling it. > > We have seen AHJ's take both approaches on this. > > > Travis Mack, CFPS, CWBSP, RME-G, SET > Engineering Manager > MFP Design > 3356 E Vallejo Ct > Gilbert, AZ 85298 > NEW EXTENSION: 480-505-9271 ext. 700 > NEW MOBILE: 480-272-2471 > mailto:[email protected] > > https://nam05.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.m > fpdesign.com%2F&data=04%7C01%7Crhinson%40burnsmcd.com%7C9c91628183 > a8418eca7e08d8872f1f06%7Cbfbb9a2b6d994e78b3c795005d555c8b%7C0%7C1%7C63 > 7407983739041705%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV > 2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C2000&sdata=hci9%2BwGXKze%2 > FjwljUcck%2B%2FFHBflWPnx4%2FmNVw27BNCI%3D&reserved=0 > > Send large files to us via: > https://nam05.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww. > hightail.com%2Fu%2FMFPDesign&data=04%7C01%7Crhinson%40burnsmcd.com > %7C9c91628183a8418eca7e08d8872f1f06%7Cbfbb9a2b6d994e78b3c795005d555c8b > %7C0%7C1%7C637407983739041705%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAw > MDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C2000&sdata=U5 > 8IfgaAkctbNutG4p5e8cm5CeN%2Fl%2Baq9Tyet05L4oY%3D&reserved=0 > LinkedIn: > https://nam05.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww. > linkedin.com%2Fin%2Ftravismack&data=04%7C01%7Crhinson%40burnsmcd.c > om%7C9c91628183a8418eca7e08d8872f1f06%7Cbfbb9a2b6d994e78b3c795005d555c > 8b%7C0%7C1%7C637407983739041705%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLj > AwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C2000&sdata= > OMFTEyg%2BUToKX0uWQzvLQbXWz0BDDnjKLsM5cUXUM3w%3D&reserved=0 > > “The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of > low price is forgotten.” > > Need/Want a faster way to check material pricing? Build a material > quote? Check availability ? Searching for an invoice? > *If you do not already have an account with ferguson.com, click here > to > register.* **Have a Ferguson account? Download the Ferguson app for > on-the-go access to your favorite ferguson.com features. 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