Many more times than you may have heard about, Craig. For a variety of reasons, there are more fires that exceed the full design area than you are told about. I recently spent four days at a fire scene where part of a sprinklered, light hazard building burned to the ground. That fire exceeded the design area. Probably didn't make into the NFPA statistics either. The sprinklered buildings that burn to the ground, that I see, are mostly storage, but not all.
Scott Office: (763) 425-1001 x2 Cell: (612) 759-5556 -----Original Message----- From: Sprinklerforum <sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org> On Behalf Of Prahl, Craig/GVL via Sprinklerforum Sent: Thursday, December 10, 2020 2:14 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Cc: Prahl, Craig/GVL <craig.pr...@jacobs.com>; travis.m...@mfpdesign.com Subject: RE: [EXTERNAL] 23.4.4.2.5: What is the purpose and how does it apply? If I had a loading dock attached to and ESFR system, I'd calc the ESFR since it would be the most hydraulically demanding. If a fire originated on the dock and migrated inward to the building, involving a portion of the dock and the ESFR system, you still should be fine from a water supply standpoint. How many times have we heard of the full involvement of a design area in an actual fire situation? Rarely. Craig Prahl | Jacobs | Group Lead/SME - Fire Protection | 864.676.5252 | craig.pr...@jacobs.com | www.jacobs.com 1041 East Butler Road Greenville, South Carolina 29606 -----Original Message----- From: Sprinklerforum <sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org> On Behalf Of Travis Mack via Sprinklerforum Sent: Thursday, December 10, 2020 2:50 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Cc: travis.m...@mfpdesign.com Subject: RE: [EXTERNAL] 23.4.4.2.5: What is the purpose and how does it apply? I believe the intent came from an example of a dry system loading dock attached to an ESFR warehouse. The statement was that if we have to carry the density over into the ESFR warehouse from the loading dock, you would be flowing an insane amount of water. If you have a 2000 sq ft loading dock, it would be about 400 gallons, but a 500 sq ft loading dock would need to include ±1500 sq ft of ESFR sprinklers in the adjacent building and that would create an insane demand. So the proposal was to just be able to add the phantom flow. Now, I will say it never dawned on me to even consider extending my design area from the loading dock into the building. If my loading dock was 1000 sq ft, I would have calc'd 1000 sq ft and never given it another thought. But if some interpretation was trying to get you to apply the extra area into the calcs, I can see where this provision would help. I think there are a lot of unintended consequences with this and most don't even realize it is present anyway. Travis Mack, CFPS, CWBSP, RME-G, SET Engineering Manager MFP Design 3356 E Vallejo Ct Gilbert, AZ 85298 NEW EXTENSION: 480-505-9271 ext. 700 NEW MOBILE: 480-272-2471 mailto:travis.m...@mfpdesign.com https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.mfpdesign.com__;!!B5cixuoO7ltTeg!Xjr6p3P-ECQu1NEEC2BvUTmBrCifNCqcbnQ4wl9vfYwAYBZi0mr_Q0iq00uYFKuhvA$ From: Sprinklerforum <sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org> On Behalf Of Ron Greenman via Sprinklerforum Sent: Thursday, December 10, 2020 12:43 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Cc: Ron Greenman <rongreen...@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] 23.4.4.2.5: What is the purpose and how does it apply? I'm pretty sure that the increase of 30% goes all the way back to pipe scheduling where the increase in area was added because of the time-delay inherent in dry pipes from fusing to water delivery and the likelihood of extra unnecessary heads fusing across the ceiling even if the fire itself wasn't spreading to require those extra heads. I think that any requirement for including a design area larger than the building was never the intent. My read would be the size of the actual demand area from the tables, either the portion of the building or the building itself if smaller than the tabular area plus a 30% increase. Consider that in an otherwise ordinary hazard building with an extra hazard area the initial increase is 15 feet all around the EH area unless it backs up to a firewall or exterior wall, and then an extra 30% if the system is dry. Or maybe I've been thinking about this wrongly for a long time. Ron Greenman mailto:rongreen...@gmail.com 253.576.9700 The Universe is monstrously indifferent to the presence of man. -Werner Herzog, screenwriter, film director, author, actor and opera director (1942-) On Thu, Dec 10, 2020 at 10:39 AM Cary Webber via Sprinklerforum < mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> wrote: > I've heard it explained that the intent was to drive up the size of > the main feeding the smaller area in case it was ever expanded in > size, but in my personal opinion the standard should NOT be in the > business of addressing the future. If the area gets added onto we can > deal with it then by replacing the main or bringing another main to > the area, like we would have done before this "phantom" flow > requirement was added. Unless there is another driving reason...this section > should be torpedoed! > > > > Cary Webber CFPS Director, Technical Services Reliable Automatic > Sprinkler Co., Inc. > 1470 Smith Grove Road, Liberty, SC 29657 > Tel: 864-843-5161 > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Sprinklerforum > <mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org> On Behalf Of > Prahl, Craig/GVL via Sprinklerforum > Sent: Thursday, December 10, 2020 11:33 AM > To: mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org > Cc: Prahl, Craig/GVL <mailto:craig.pr...@jacobs.com>; James Litvak < > mailto:jameslit...@gmail.com> > Subject: RE: [EXTERNAL] 23.4.4.2.5: What is the purpose and how does > it apply? > > CAUTION: This email originated from outside of the organization. Do > not click links or open attachments unless you can confirm the sender > and know the content is safe. > > > Very good question. I've read discussions on this issue recently as > well and really wonder what was the thought process behind including a > non-existent flow value in the system design and calculations. > > I would love to hear the rationale for this section. > > > Craig Prahl | Jacobs | Group Lead/SME - Fire Protection | 864.676.5252 > | mailto:craig.pr...@jacobs.com | > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook > .com/?url=http*3A*2F*2Fwww.jacobs.com*2F&data=04*7C01*7Ccwebber*40 > reliablesprinkler.com*7Ce791ae6338e848f54a0d08d89d2942ec*7C361f92efbca > 442cdaf0d8099acee2244*7C0*7C0*7C637432148122644145*7CUnknown*7CTWFpbGZ > sb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0*3 > D*7C3000&sdata=o0k5BzpuHWbBfTNE0lqjJypgJwBD7cs*2BBO0IbXwk3Tc*3D&am > p;reserved=0__;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUl!!B5cixuoO7ltTeg!Xjr6p3P-ECQu1N > EEC2BvUTmBrCifNCqcbnQ4wl9vfYwAYBZi0mr_Q0iq00v9Ihgiaw$ > 1041 East Butler Road Greenville, South Carolina 29606 > > -----Original Message----- > From: Sprinklerforum > <mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org> On Behalf Of > James Litvak via Sprinklerforum > Sent: Thursday, December 10, 2020 10:45 AM > To: mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org > Cc: James Litvak <mailto:jameslit...@gmail.com> > Subject: [EXTERNAL] 23.4.4.2.5: What is the purpose and how does it apply? > > I've just been introduced to section 23.4.4.2.5 (2016). In my > particular situation, I have an EH2 refueling building (0.4 / 2,500) > that is 2,268 sq.ft. in its entirety. The flow from my calc came out > to 998 gpm, so I was told by my coworker who reviewed my plans not to > worry about the extra 2 gpm that would need to be added to meet the > 0.4 * 2,500 = 1,000 gpm minimum requirement. However, this is a dry > system. So I asked my coworker if > 23.4.4.2.5 applies to the 2,500 sq.ft. minimum per Figure 11.2.3.1.1, > or if it applies to 3,250 sq.ft. after I increase 30%, which would > require a minimum of 1,300 gpm. Not only are we unsure of that, but > that got us wondering what the exact purpose of this section is, and > how it would apply to other situations. If I have an EH2 building that > is 300 sq.ft. and protected with 3 sprinklers on a dry system, do I > need to design the riser and cross main to handle 1,000 (maybe 1,300) gpm? > That seems insane. > > I've read through some threads on this forum, and also some websites, > and the example often given is that of a paint booth. One example > considers a paint booth protected by 6 high temp. sprinklers with a demand of > 250 gpm. > It says that 550 gpm would need to be added to the cross main to make > up the rest of the required 0.4 * 2,000 = 800 gpm minimum demand. But > why? If a sprinkler in an EH2 area is required to provide at least 0.4 > gpm/sq.ft., and they are doing that, what is the purpose of providing > more flow? The hazard remains the exact same, so why are we required > to overdischarge, when the actual potential risk is lower than a > larger area? Theoretically, my 2,268 EH2 building is a lower risk than > a 4,000 EH2 building that is otherwise exactly the same. Yet if I go > by 1,300 gpm as my minimum required demand, I will be providing way > more water per sq.ft. in the smaller building than in the larger building. > > So unless I am completely missing something here - or a few things - I > am totally baffled. I'm hoping someone can help me understand all this. > Thanks. > > > James Litvak > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > mailto:Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook > .com/?url=https*3A*2F*2Furldefense.com*2Fv3*2F__http*3A*2F*2Flists.fir > esprinkler.org*2Flistinfo.cgi*2Fsprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org__*3B! > !B5cixuoO7ltTeg!VO4VMIa80RQe-j4UNMGpQfWegM4j7sqJxkum95ViMHfpMByNGKHBmR > o-w194r6keuQ*24&data=04*7C01*7Ccwebber*40reliablesprinkler.com*7Ce > 791ae6338e848f54a0d08d89d2942ec*7C361f92efbca442cdaf0d8099acee2244*7C0 > *7C0*7C637432148122644145*7CUnknown*7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAi > LCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0*3D*7C3000&sdata=RtkQCH > eIlIU8jefO0VxjOMqADWPhxLBT4HmD20VP1qQ*3D&reserved=0__;JSUlJSUlJSUl > JSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJQ!!B5cixuoO7ltTeg!Xjr6p3P-ECQu1NEEC2BvUTmBrCifNCq > cbnQ4wl9vfYwAYBZi0mr_Q0iq00sYZO66jQ$ > > ________________________________ > > NOTICE - This communication may contain confidential and privileged > information that is for the sole use of the intended recipient. 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