So one minor issue and one big issue with that solution:
1. minor issue, I now get these: SAWarning: relationship 'XXXX' will copy 
columnYYYY to column ZZZZ, which conflicts with relationship(s): '....
2. major issue, I use raiseload("*") and now I start 
seeing: sqlalchemy.exc.InvalidRequestError: 'Employee._ft_for_dependency' 
is not available due to lazy='raise'

On Wednesday, October 10, 2018 at 9:57:55 AM UTC-4, Mike Bayer wrote:
>
> On Tue, Oct 9, 2018 at 6:45 PM Alex Rothberg <agrot...@gmail.com 
> <javascript:>> wrote: 
> > 
> > Okay with some small tweaks to your original code, I am able to show the 
> issue I am having. comment out flush to see issue: 
>
> so what you're doing here is making Employee dependent on FundTitle, 
> which makes this a little out of the ordinary but this is fine.   You 
> need to give the ORM a clue that this dependency exists, since it 
> never looks at foreign key constraints unless you tell it to. 
> Adding a relationship to FundTitle that doesn't have viewonly=True is 
> an easy way to do this, there's no need to ever make use of the 
> relationship otherwise: 
>
> class Employee(Base): 
>     __tablename__ = 'employee' 
>
>     # ... 
>     fund_title = relationship(FundTitle, viewonly=True) 
>
>     _ft_for_dependency = relationship(FundTitle) 
>
>     __table_args__ = ( 
>         ForeignKeyConstraint( 
>             (title_id, department_id, fund_id), 
>             (FundTitle.title_id, FundTitle.department_id, 
> FundTitle.fund_id) 
>         ), 
>     ) 
>
> then you can take the flush() out and there's no issue, as long as 
> you're always making sure that FundTitle object is present either in 
> the current Session or the row in the database exists. 
>
>
> > 
> > from sqlalchemy import * 
> > from sqlalchemy.orm import * 
> > from sqlalchemy.ext.declarative import declarative_base 
> > 
> > Base = declarative_base() 
> > 
> > 
> > class Title(Base): 
> >     __tablename__ = 'title' 
> >     id = Column(Integer, primary_key=True) 
> >     department_id = Column(ForeignKey('department.id'), nullable=False) 
> > 
> >     department = relationship(lambda: Department) 
> > 
> > 
> > class Department(Base): 
> >     __tablename__ = 'department' 
> >     id = Column(Integer, primary_key=True) 
> > 
> > 
> > class Fund(Base): 
> >     __tablename__ = 'fund' 
> >     id = Column(Integer, primary_key=True) 
> >     title_id = Column(ForeignKey('title.id'), nullable=False) 
> >     department_id = Column(ForeignKey('department.id'), nullable=False) 
> >     department = relationship("Department") 
> >     title = relationship("Title") 
> > 
> > 
> > class FundTitle(Base): 
> >     __tablename__ = 'fund_title' 
> >     id = Column(Integer, primary_key=True) 
> >     title_id = Column(ForeignKey('title.id'), nullable=False) 
> >     department_id = Column(ForeignKey('department.id'), nullable=False) 
> >     fund_id = Column(ForeignKey('fund.id'), nullable=False) 
> >     department = relationship("Department") 
> >     title = relationship("Title") 
> >     fund = relationship("Fund") 
> > 
> >     __table_args__ = ( 
> >         UniqueConstraint( 
> >             title_id, department_id, fund_id 
> >         ), 
> >     ) 
> > 
> > 
> > class Employee(Base): 
> >     __tablename__ = 'employee' 
> >     id = Column(Integer, primary_key=True) 
> >     title_id = Column(ForeignKey('title.id'), nullable=False) 
> >     department_id = Column(ForeignKey('department.id'), nullable=False) 
> >     fund_id = Column(ForeignKey('fund.id'), nullable=False) 
> > 
> >     department = relationship(lambda: Department) 
> >     title = relationship("Title") 
> >     fund = relationship("Fund") 
> > 
> >     fund_title = relationship(FundTitle, viewonly=True) 
> > 
> > 
> >     __table_args__ = ( 
> >         ForeignKeyConstraint( 
> >             (title_id, department_id, fund_id), (FundTitle.title_id, 
> FundTitle.department_id, FundTitle.fund_id) 
> >         ), 
> >     ) 
> > 
> > 
> > e = create_engine("postgresql://localhost/test_issue", echo=False) 
> > 
> > # Base.metadata.drop_all(e) 
> > Base.metadata.create_all(e) 
> > 
> > s = Session(e) 
> > # s.rollback() 
> > 
> > while True: 
> >     d1 = Department() 
> >     t1 = Title(department=d1) 
> >     f1 = Fund(department=d1, title=t1) 
> >     ft1 = FundTitle(title=t1, department=d1, fund=f1) 
> > 
> >     s.add_all([d1, t1, f1,  ft1]) 
> > 
> >     s.flush() 
> > 
> >     e1 = Employee(title=t1, department=d1, fund=f1) 
> > 
> >     s.add_all([e1,]) 
> >     s.commit() 
> > 
> > On Tuesday, October 9, 2018 at 12:20:30 PM UTC-4, Mike Bayer wrote: 
> >> 
> >> On Tue, Oct 9, 2018 at 10:44 AM Alex Rothberg <agrot...@gmail.com> 
> wrote: 
> >> > 
> >> > In looking at what you wrote doesn't this cause an fk violation (it 
> does for me): 
> >> > 2018-10-08 10:18:38,760 INFO sqlalchemy.engine.base.Engine INSERT 
> INTO employee (title_id, department_id, fund_id) VALUES (%(title_id)s, 
> %(department_id)s, %(fund_id)s) RETURNING employee.id 
> >> > 2018-10-08 10:18:38,763 INFO sqlalchemy.engine.base.Engine INSERT 
> INTO fund_title (title_id, department_id, fund_id) VALUES (%(title_id)s, 
> %(department_id)s, %(fund_id)s) RETURNING fund_title.id 
> >> > 
> >> > in that a a (non deferred) fk is violated between employee and 
> fund_title ? 
> >> 
> >> see we need to see how youve laid out your ForeignKeyConstraints, if 
> >> they are composite and overlapping, there are additional options that 
> >> may be needed (specifically the post_update flag).  you'll note I laid 
> >> out all FKs as single column. 
> >> 
> >> > 
> >> > On Mon, Oct 8, 2018 at 10:20 AM Mike Bayer <mik...@zzzcomputing.com> 
> wrote: 
> >> >> 
> >> >> On Sun, Oct 7, 2018 at 7:11 PM Alex Rothberg <agrot...@gmail.com> 
> wrote: 
> >> >> > 
> >> >> > Okay so I investigated / thought about this further. The issue is 
> that while I do have a relationship between the various models, some of the 
> relationships are viewonly since I have overlapping fks. 
> >> >> > 
> >> >> > For example I have a model Employee, which has fks: department_id, 
> title_id, and fund_id. The related models are Department (fk 
> department_id), Title (fk department_id and title_id) , Fund (fk fund_id) 
> and FundTitle (fk department_id, title_id and fund_id). I have set 
> FundTitle to viewonly. When updating / creating an Employee, I do create 
> and add a new FundTitle to the session, however I don't assign it to the 
> employee as the relationship is viewonly. If I don't flush before making 
> the assignment, the final flush / commit attempts to update / create the 
> employee before creating the FundTitle. 
> >> >> 
> >> >> let's work with source code that is runnable (e.g. MCVE).   Below is 
> >> >> the model that it seems you are describing, and then there's a 
> >> >> demonstration of assembly of all those components using 
> relationships, 
> >> >> a single flush and it all goes in in the correct order, all FKs are 
> >> >> nullable=False. 
> >> >> 
> >> >> from sqlalchemy import * 
> >> >> from sqlalchemy.orm import * 
> >> >> from sqlalchemy.ext.declarative import declarative_base 
> >> >> 
> >> >> Base = declarative_base() 
> >> >> 
> >> >> 
> >> >> class Employee(Base): 
> >> >>     __tablename__ = 'employee' 
> >> >>     id = Column(Integer, primary_key=True) 
> >> >>     title_id = Column(ForeignKey('title.id'), nullable=False) 
> >> >>     department_id = Column(ForeignKey('department.id'), 
> nullable=False) 
> >> >>     fund_id = Column(ForeignKey('fund.id'), nullable=False) 
> >> >>     department = relationship("Department") 
> >> >>     title = relationship("Title") 
> >> >>     fund = relationship("Fund") 
> >> >> 
> >> >> 
> >> >> class Title(Base): 
> >> >>     __tablename__ = 'title' 
> >> >>     id = Column(Integer, primary_key=True) 
> >> >>     department_id = Column(ForeignKey('department.id'), 
> nullable=False) 
> >> >>     department = relationship("Department") 
> >> >> 
> >> >> 
> >> >> class Department(Base): 
> >> >>     __tablename__ = 'department' 
> >> >>     id = Column(Integer, primary_key=True) 
> >> >> 
> >> >> 
> >> >> class Fund(Base): 
> >> >>     __tablename__ = 'fund' 
> >> >>     id = Column(Integer, primary_key=True) 
> >> >>     title_id = Column(ForeignKey('title.id'), nullable=False) 
> >> >>     department_id = Column(ForeignKey('department.id'), 
> nullable=False) 
> >> >>     department = relationship("Department") 
> >> >>     title = relationship("Title") 
> >> >> 
> >> >> 
> >> >> class FundTitle(Base): 
> >> >>     __tablename__ = 'fund_title' 
> >> >>     id = Column(Integer, primary_key=True) 
> >> >>     title_id = Column(ForeignKey('title.id'), nullable=False) 
> >> >>     department_id = Column(ForeignKey('department.id'), 
> nullable=False) 
> >> >>     fund_id = Column(ForeignKey('fund.id'), nullable=False) 
> >> >>     department = relationship("Department") 
> >> >>     title = relationship("Title") 
> >> >>     fund = relationship("Fund") 
> >> >> 
> >> >> e = create_engine("postgresql://scott:tiger@localhost/test", 
> echo=True) 
> >> >> Base.metadata.create_all(e) 
> >> >> 
> >> >> s = Session(e) 
> >> >> 
> >> >> d1 = Department() 
> >> >> t1 = Title(department=d1) 
> >> >> f1 = Fund(department=d1, title=t1) 
> >> >> ft1 = FundTitle(title=t1, department=d1, fund=f1) 
> >> >> e1 = Employee(title=t1, department=d1, fund=f1) 
> >> >> 
> >> >> s.add_all([d1, t1, f1, ft1, e1]) 
> >> >> s.commit() 
> >> >> 
> >> >> 
> >> >> the INSERTs can be ordered naturally here and the unit of work will 
> do 
> >> >> that for you if you use relationship: 
> >> >> 
> >> >> BEGIN (implicit) 
> >> >> 2018-10-08 10:18:38,750 INFO sqlalchemy.engine.base.Engine INSERT 
> INTO 
> >> >> department DEFAULT VALUES RETURNING department.id 
> >> >> 2018-10-08 10:18:38,750 INFO sqlalchemy.engine.base.Engine {} 
> >> >> 2018-10-08 10:18:38,753 INFO sqlalchemy.engine.base.Engine INSERT 
> INTO 
> >> >> title (department_id) VALUES (%(department_id)s) RETURNING title.id 
> >> >> 2018-10-08 10:18:38,753 INFO sqlalchemy.engine.base.Engine 
> {'department_id': 1} 
> >> >> 2018-10-08 10:18:38,757 INFO sqlalchemy.engine.base.Engine INSERT 
> INTO 
> >> >> fund (title_id, department_id) VALUES (%(title_id)s, 
> >> >> %(department_id)s) RETURNING fund.id 
> >> >> 2018-10-08 10:18:38,757 INFO sqlalchemy.engine.base.Engine 
> >> >> {'title_id': 1, 'department_id': 1} 
> >> >> 2018-10-08 10:18:38,760 INFO sqlalchemy.engine.base.Engine INSERT 
> INTO 
> >> >> employee (title_id, department_id, fund_id) VALUES (%(title_id)s, 
> >> >> %(department_id)s, %(fund_id)s) RETURNING employee.id 
> >> >> 2018-10-08 10:18:38,761 INFO sqlalchemy.engine.base.Engine 
> >> >> {'title_id': 1, 'department_id': 1, 'fund_id': 1} 
> >> >> 2018-10-08 10:18:38,763 INFO sqlalchemy.engine.base.Engine INSERT 
> INTO 
> >> >> fund_title (title_id, department_id, fund_id) VALUES (%(title_id)s, 
> >> >> %(department_id)s, %(fund_id)s) RETURNING fund_title.id 
> >> >> 2018-10-08 10:18:38,764 INFO sqlalchemy.engine.base.Engine 
> >> >> {'title_id': 1, 'department_id': 1, 'fund_id': 1} 
> >> >> 2018-10-08 10:18:38,766 INFO sqlalchemy.engine.base.Engine COMMIT 
> >> >> 
> >> >> 
> >> >> 
> >> >> 
> >> >> 
> >> >> > 
> >> >> > On Tuesday, September 18, 2018 at 9:02:30 AM UTC-4, Mike Bayer 
> wrote: 
> >> >> >> 
> >> >> >> if there are no dependencies between two particular objects of 
> >> >> >> different classes, say A and B, then there is no deterministic 
> >> >> >> ordering between them.   For objects of the same class, they are 
> >> >> >> inserted in the order in which they were added to the Session. 
> >> >> >> 
> >> >> >> the correct way to solve this problem in SQLAlchemy is to use 
> >> >> >> relationship() fully.  I know you've stated that these objects 
> have a 
> >> >> >> relationship() between them but you have to actually use it, that 
> is: 
> >> >> >> 
> >> >> >> obj_a = A() 
> >> >> >> obj_b = B() 
> >> >> >> 
> >> >> >> obj_a.some_relationship = obj_b   # will definitely flush 
> correctly 
> >> >> >> unless there is a bug 
> >> >> >> 
> >> >> >> OTOH if you are only using foreign key attributes, the ORM does 
> *not* 
> >> >> >> have any idea in how it should be flushing these: 
> >> >> >> 
> >> >> >> obj_a = A() 
> >> >> >> obj_b = B() 
> >> >> >> 
> >> >> >> obj_a.some_fk = obj_b.some_id    # ORM doesn't care about this, 
> no 
> >> >> >> ordering is implied 
> >> >> >> 
> >> >> >> 
> >> >> >> since you said you're not setting any IDs, I'm not sure how you 
> could 
> >> >> >> be doing the above. 
> >> >> >> 
> >> >> >> 
> >> >> >> 
> >> >> >> 
> >> >> >> 
> >> >> >> 
> >> >> >> On Tue, Sep 18, 2018 at 5:53 AM Simon King <
> si...@simonking.org.uk> wrote: 
> >> >> >> > 
> >> >> >> > It's not something I've ever looked into, but I'm not aware of 
> any 
> >> >> >> > debugging options here, no. You'd probably want to start by 
> scattering 
> >> >> >> > print statements around the UOWTransaction class 
> >> >> >> > (
> https://bitbucket.org/zzzeek/sqlalchemy/src/c94d67892e68ac317d72eb202cca427084b3ca74/lib/sqlalchemy/orm/unitofwork.py?at=master&fileviewer=file-view-default#unitofwork.py-111)
>  
>
> >> >> >> > 
> >> >> >> > Looking at that code made me wonder whether you've set any 
> particular 
> >> >> >> > cascade options on your relationship; I'm not sure if cascade 
> options 
> >> >> >> > affect the dependency calculation. 
> >> >> >> > 
> >> >> >> > Simon 
> >> >> >> > 
> >> >> >> > On Tue, Sep 18, 2018 at 5:28 AM Alex Rothberg <
> agrot...@gmail.com> wrote: 
> >> >> >> > > 
> >> >> >> > > In order to guide me in stripping down this code to produce 
> an example for positing, are there any options / flags / introspections I 
> can turn on to understand how sql makes decisions about the order in which 
> is writes statements to the DB? 
> >> >> >> > > 
> >> >> >> > > On Friday, September 14, 2018 at 10:13:45 AM UTC-4, Simon 
> King wrote: 
> >> >> >> > >> 
> >> >> >> > >> In that case can you show us the code that is causing the 
> problem? 
> >> >> >> > >> On Fri, Sep 14, 2018 at 2:55 PM Alex Rothberg <
> agrot...@gmail.com> wrote: 
> >> >> >> > >> > 
> >> >> >> > >> > I am not generating any IDs myself and I already have 
> relationships between the models. 
> >> >> >> > >> > 
> >> >> >> > >> > On Friday, September 14, 2018 at 4:33:08 AM UTC-4, Simon 
> King wrote: 
> >> >> >> > >> >> 
> >> >> >> > >> >> On Thu, Sep 13, 2018 at 10:50 PM Alex Rothberg <
> agrot...@gmail.com> wrote: 
> >> >> >> > >> >> > 
> >> >> >> > >> >> > Is it possible to hint at sqla the order in which it 
> should write out changes to the DB? 
> >> >> >> > >> >> > 
> >> >> >> > >> >> > I am having issues in which I add two new objects to a 
> session, a and b where a depends on b, but sqla is flushing a before b 
> leading to an fk issue. I can solve this a few ways: explicitly calling 
> flush after adding b, or changing the fk constraint to be initially 
> deferred. Ideally I would not have to do either of these. 
> >> >> >> > >> >> > 
> >> >> >> > >> >> 
> >> >> >> > >> >> If you have configured a relationship between the two 
> classes 
> >> >> >> > >> >> (
> http://docs.sqlalchemy.org/en/latest/orm/tutorial.html#building-a-relationship),
>  
>
> >> >> >> > >> >> and you've linked the objects together using that 
> relationship (a.b = 
> >> >> >> > >> >> b), then SQLAlchemy will flush them in the correct order. 
> If you are 
> >> >> >> > >> >> generating your IDs in Python and assigning them to the 
> primary and 
> >> >> >> > >> >> foreign key columns directly, SQLAlchemy probably won't 
> understand the 
> >> >> >> > >> >> dependency. 
> >> >> >> > >> >> 
> >> >> >> > >> >> Does using a relationship fix your problem? 
> >> >> >> > >> >> 
> >> >> >> > >> >> Simon 
> >> >> >> > >> > 
> >> >> >> > >> > -- 
> >> >> >> > >> > SQLAlchemy - 
> >> >> >> > >> > The Python SQL Toolkit and Object Relational Mapper 
> >> >> >> > >> > 
> >> >> >> > >> > http://www.sqlalchemy.org/ 
> >> >> >> > >> > 
> >> >> >> > >> > To post example code, please provide an MCVE: Minimal, 
> Complete, and Verifiable Example. See http://stackoverflow.com/help/mcve 
> for a full description. 
> >> >> >> > >> > --- 
> >> >> >> > >> > You received this message because you are subscribed to 
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>
> >> >> >> > > 
> >> >> >> > > -- 
> >> >> >> > > SQLAlchemy - 
> >> >> >> > > The Python SQL Toolkit and Object Relational Mapper 
> >> >> >> > > 
> >> >> >> > > http://www.sqlalchemy.org/ 
> >> >> >> > > 
> >> >> >> > > To post example code, please provide an MCVE: Minimal, 
> Complete, and Verifiable Example. See http://stackoverflow.com/help/mcve 
> for a full description. 
> >> >> >> > > --- 
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> >> >> >> > 
> >> >> >> > -- 
> >> >> >> > SQLAlchemy - 
> >> >> >> > The Python SQL Toolkit and Object Relational Mapper 
> >> >> >> > 
> >> >> >> > http://www.sqlalchemy.org/ 
> >> >> >> > 
> >> >> >> > To post example code, please provide an MCVE: Minimal, 
> Complete, and Verifiable Example.  See  http://stackoverflow.com/help/mcve 
> for a full description. 
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> >> >> > 
> >> >> > -- 
> >> >> > SQLAlchemy - 
> >> >> > The Python SQL Toolkit and Object Relational Mapper 
> >> >> > 
> >> >> > http://www.sqlalchemy.org/ 
> >> >> > 
> >> >> > To post example code, please provide an MCVE: Minimal, Complete, 
> and Verifiable Example. See http://stackoverflow.com/help/mcve for a full 
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> >> >> -- 
> >> >> SQLAlchemy - 
> >> >> The Python SQL Toolkit and Object Relational Mapper 
> >> >> 
> >> >> http://www.sqlalchemy.org/ 
> >> >> 
> >> >> To post example code, please provide an MCVE: Minimal, Complete, and 
> Verifiable Example.  See  http://stackoverflow.com/help/mcve for a full 
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> >> > -- 
> >> > SQLAlchemy - 
> >> > The Python SQL Toolkit and Object Relational Mapper 
> >> > 
> >> > http://www.sqlalchemy.org/ 
> >> > 
> >> > To post example code, please provide an MCVE: Minimal, Complete, and 
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> > The Python SQL Toolkit and Object Relational Mapper 
> > 
> > http://www.sqlalchemy.org/ 
> > 
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