https://logs.xmpp.org/council/2021-04-07?p=h#2021-04-07-7313fa59410db8a5
1) Roll Call Present: Daniel, Jonas, Zash, Dave Late to the party: Georg 2) Agenda Bashing None. 3) Editor's Update * Last Call on XEP-0313 expired (last week already) * Last Call on XEP-0280 expired yesterday (2021-04-06) 4a) Advance XEP-0313 (Message Archive Management) - https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0313.html Jonas shares Georg's concerns about the Security Considerations section (AOB item related.) Daniel has complicated feelings about this XEP (along with XEP-0280) - both feel like temporary fixes to fundamental issues in the protocol; Zash would say they feel like pretty large parts of a modern XMPP. Kev suggests they are both temporary, and would be surprised if either lasted more than a couple of decades. Daniel doesn't think any of this should stop them from advancing, it's more an explanation of why they will never be entirely satisfactory. Zash thinks it might be a good idea to go through the previous Last Calls and check whether everything raised has been addressed (not that he is volunteering for the job.) Daniel recalls that many of the points raised were that specific edge cases weren't covered, but doesn't expect all edge cases will ever be fully covered, and that's just something we have to live with - Jonas thinks that the problem of "how to get all relevant messages on all devices" is almost fully covered by XEP-0313 and XEP-0280, and they're worth moving to Draft based on that. Georg has at least checked through the LC feedback for XEP-0280; Jonas skimmed through and mostly saw "Bind2" (for the long part at the bottom.) Zash: [on-list] Daniel: [on-list] Jonas: [on-list] Dave: +1 (the CVE bits can be added afterwards) Georg: [on-list] (really want to see a discussion of the points I brought up) Georg is most interested in properly specifying the storage rules in XEP-0313 - Zash wonders whether those rules will have to evolve with new XEPs, etc. (also applies to Carbons) - Georg agrees and thinks having them under a separate namespace is a good idea. Zash was thinking that new XEPs could describe whether their payloads should be stored. Daniel thinks the problem with both XEPs is that there isn't really good definition of what a message is. Sam thinks all of this is a reason to advance both XEPs - they will never be perfect, and may need to change in the future, but both are already very widely implemented so they can't be changed too much (which sounds a lot like Draft.) Zash believes subtly different rules are needed for MAM, Carbons, CSI, and cloud notify, but there is still a lot of overlap, though they will have to continue evolving in the future - Georg is very interested in extracting those subtle differences. Jonas doubts this can be solved here, so further discussion is needed. 4b) Advance XEP-0280 (Message Carbons) - https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0280.html Daniel: [on-list] Zash: [on-list] Jonas: [on-list] Georg: [pending] Dave: [pending] Georg is very much interested in more list feedback, particularly from server developers; there wasn't an appropriate amount of feedback to the LC given the importance of the XEP, but Georg isn't sure if that just means it's working perfectly for everyone - Jonas suggests the community may be worn out after the long succession of LCs it has already had. Kev thinks everyone understands that Carbons is a necessary evil - Georg thinks it's a hack on top of a hack on top of a bad design from the turn of the millennium. Jonas doubts this can be solved here, so further discussion is needed. 5) Pending Votes One for Dave on Deprecating XEP-0013 (expires next week.) 6) Date of Next 2021-04-14 1500 UTC 7) AOB Georg is working on a first draft of adding a CVE element for XEPs that works similar to a 'code' block - this isn't strictly a protocol thing (it doesn't affect the protocol itself, only implementations), but Georg thinks it goes in a similar direction as DOAP. Jonas thinks that having references to past CVEs in the Security Considerations is a good a good thing as it shows the severity, and rationale for specific rules. Jonas feels that having it in the document metadata would be wrong because CVEs are about implementations, not protocols, so adding the list to the protocol seems generally incorrect; additionally, embedding the metadata list at the right place in the document would be a non-trivial XSL task. Georg hopes that having a custom element will allow for future extraction. Georg also wanted to discuss his LC comments on both XEP-0313 and XEP-0280, but the meeting is already over time; Jonas suggests taking it to the list. 8) Close Thanks Jonas, everyone, all. Georg feels he should veto XEP-0313 as is because of the lack of business rules - the 0280 rules were a huge step forward, even if not perfect, and having them in 0313 would be another huge benefit; and business rules for clients. Zash recalls talk of dusting off XEP-0226 (Message Stanza Profiles) - Georg thinks that counts as volunteering - Zash suddenly has somewhere to be.
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