https://logs.xmpp.org/council/2021-04-21?p=h#2021-04-21-fe0390d1de2e24de
1) Roll Call Present: Zash, Jonas, Daniel, Georg Definitely not present: Dave 2) Agenda Bashing None. 3) Editor's Update Nothing. 4) Items for Voting No new items. 5) Pending Votes Jonas declares that the expiring LCs - XEP-0313 (Message Archive Management) and XEP-0280 (Message Carbons) - need to be handled now. Kev thinks MAM needs at least one round of changes, given his review yesterday [1], but they're not major; Georg thinks MAM needs at least one round of changes, given his review three weeks ago [2], but they're rather significant. Zash has looked at the past LCs and noticed a lot of back and forth on things, such as the 'private' element versus XEP-0334 (Message Processing Hints). Dave, who is definitely not here, has been dragged into a meeting. Jonas thinks the rules should be factored out into a Standards document which defines 'disco#info' features, the rules should be called "General Routing Rules" and versioning should go across all of them, but they may be different for each 'routing' protocol (MAM, Carbons, CSI, Push, etc) - Zash thinks this sounds good; Jonas adds that the issue of such a living document never being able to advance beyond Draft can be considered later, or maybe IM-NG will save us all. Georg checks that Jonas means one namespace for all routing rules, rather than one per task - Jonas does, but isn't fully sold on it - Zash thinks the base wire protocols are probably good enough and certainly well-deployed by now. Georg wonders what will happen to the 'carbons:rules' namespace - Jonas says it would be implicit in the routing-rules namespace - Georg laments that it was really just a quirk to get around bumping Carbons, so he won't be duelling to preserve its honour. Kev notes that nothing needs to be factored out for later rules to be defined elsewhere; the intention when writing 0313 was that a later external feature could be advertised for a concrete set of rules, à la XEP-0280. Jonas reiterates that he's not fully sold on unifying the rules under a single namespace, but it seemed sensible as a quick thought, although it may be overkill once individual rules need to be adapted and all others need to be hoisted with it, and suddenly separated features don't seem like a terrible idea. Georg is considering using his 0313 vote to extort somebody into writing down the 0313 routing rules - Jonas gets the impression it may be blocked anyway; Kev doesn't think it's meaningfully blocked (changes shouldn't need another LC) - Georg thinks there are still open questions around MUC in personal MAM and client business rules, and the Bind2/MAM subscription topic that probably needs to be postponed anyway. Given these points, Georg votes -1 on advancing XEP-0313. Jonas presses for votes on XEP-0280. Zash thinks the 'private' element thing seems unresolved - Georg says Kev addressed the stripping 'private' point; and Georg would like to discuss Hints, with a desire to move forward by removing Hints and the stripping requirement, while convincing Council to go on without a namespace bump, also rewriting the Mobile Considerations to say the opposite of what it does now. Jonas sees a problem with not bumping the namespace: a client relying on a 'private' element could be tripped-up by an old server having stripped it - Georg suggests that adding an implementation note could fix everything. Georg notes that versions before 0.9 had different semantics for stripping 'private' (it was stripped by the sending server) - Jonas realises that nobody can rely on 'private' being present or stripped, and adding another change isn't going to improve things. Georg asks for confirmation to move forward with his grand plan - Jonas suggests Georg leaves 'private' alone, not seeing that it would bring any good. Georg thinks Kev had a great point about letting a receiving client know it has received a Carbon which won't be delivered to any other resource. Kev thinks stripping 'private' is not an insignificant security consideration - allowing another user to modify your server's routing rules without any indication doesn't seem safe at all - Jonas agrees, though just removing that rule doesn't mean anyone can rely on the element not being stripped, so a feature flag would be good. Kev, whose opinion doesn't matter, would be okay with removing the stripping rule (or even flipping it to MUST NOT) without adding a feature flag, but flags are cheap and not without value - Jonas agrees; Georg can live with doing that. Georg asks about stripping Hints from the XEP - the current version requires stripping 'private' but doesn't mention stripping the hint - Jonas asks what the harm is in keeping it - Georg wants to avoid enshrining unwanted protocol. Georg notes that a previous version only required adding 'private', while the later version required adding both 'private' and the 'no-copy' hint, so removing the hint requirement shouldn't break compliant implementations - Jonas agrees that if both are currently required then removing the hint shouldn't cause damage. Daniel thinks the concept of private messages is outdated - Georg asks about OTR - Daniel says that was the only thing using it, and even version 3 didn't technically need it. Kev adds that 'private' goes away once IM-NG saves the world, but isn't sure what should happen until then. Jonas asks whether Georg has anything else to add, given the time - Georg does not. Georg asks whether the CVE PR has been applied - Jonas says it hasn't, but to bring it up on-list because there was controversy in the Standards MUC, and Jonas would like to see some rough consensus. 6) Date of Next 2021-04-28 1500 UTC Georg will be present, but is planning on taking a break from the computer for the two weeks following. 7) AOB Skipped due to time. 8) Close Thanks everyone. Georg points out that nobody voted on 0280… 9) Un-close Jonas elicits votes on XEP-0280. Daniel: +0 Georg: +1 (with all the discussed changes applied) Zash: -1 (until the <private> thing has consensus and is resolved) Jonas: -1 (following Zash here; changing my +1) 10) Re-close Thanks everyone. Georg wonders how Zash imagines consensus happening - Zash has run out of coffee and can't think any more. [1] https://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/standards/2021-April/038292.html [2] https://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/standards/2021-March/038276.html
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