On Wed, Mar 15, 2023 at 12:33 PM David Lang via Rpm <r...@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote: > > if you want another example of the failure, look at any conference center, > they > have a small number of APs with wide coverage. It works well when the place is > empty and they walk around and test it, but when it fills up with users, the > entire network collapses. > > Part of this is that wifi was really designed for sparse environments, so it's > solution to "I didn't get my message through" is to talk slower (and louder if > possible), which just creates more interference for other users and reduces > the > available airtime. > > I just finished the Scale conference in Pasadena, CA. We deployed over 100 APs > for the conference, up to 7 in a room, on the floor (so that the attendees > bodies attenuate the signal) at low power so that the channels could be > re-used > more readily.
How did it go? You were deploying fq_codel on the wndr3800s there as of a few years ago, and I remember you got rave reviews... (can you repost the link to that old data/blog/podcast?) Did you get any good stats? Run cake anywhere? > > in the cell phone world they discovered 'microcells' years ago, but with wifi > too many people are still trying to cover the max area with the fewest > possible > number of radios. As Dan says, it just doesn't work. > > and on mesh radios, you need to not just use a different channel for your > uplink, you need a different band to avoid desense on the connection to your > users. And that uplink is going to have the same hidden transmitter and > airtime > problems competing with the other nodes also doing the uplink that it's > scalability is very limited (even with directional antennas). Wire/fiber for > the > uplink is much better. > > David Lang > > > > On Wed, 15 Mar > 2023, dan via Bloat wrote: > > > Trying to do all of what is currently wanted with 1 AP in a house is a huge > > part of the current problems with WiFi networks. MOAR power to try to > > overcome attenuation and reflections from walls so more power bleeds into > > the next home/suite/apartment etc. > > > > In the MSP space it's been rapidly moving to an AP per room with output > > turned down to minimum. Doing this we can reused 5Ghz channels 50ft away > > (through 2 walls etc...) without interference. > > > > One issue with the RRH model is that to accomplish this 'light bulb' model, > > ie you put a light bulb in the room you want light, is that it requires > > infrastructure cabling. 1 RRH AP in a house is already a failure today and > > accounts for most access complaints. > > > > Mesh radios have provided a bit of a gap fill, getting the access SSID > > closer to the device and backhauling on a separate channel with better (and > > likely fixed position ) antennas. > > > > regardless of my opinion on the full on failure of moving firewall off prem > > and the associated security risks and liabilities, single AP in a home is > > already a proven failure that has given rise to the mesh systems that are > > top sellers and top performers today. > > > > IMO, there was a scheme that gained a moment of fame and then died out of > > powerline networking and an AP per room off that powerline network. I have > > some of these deployed with mikrotik PLA adapters and the model works > > fantastically, but the powerline networking has evolved slowly so I'm > > seeing ~200Mbps practical speeds, and the mikrotik units have 802.11n > > radios in them so also a bit of a struggle for modern speeds. This model, > > with some development to get ~2.5Gbps practical speeds, and WiFi6 or WiFi7 > > per room at very low output power, is a very practical and deployable by > > consumers setup. > > > > WiFi7 also solves some pieces of this with AP coordination and > > co-transmission, sort of like a MUMIMO with multiple APs, and that's in > > early devices already (TPLINK just launched an AP). > > > > IMO, too many hurdles for RRH models from massive amounts of unfrastructure > > to build, homes and appartment buildings that need re-wired, security and > > liability concerns of homes and business not being firewall isolated by > > stakeholders of those networks. > > > > On Wed, Mar 15, 2023 at 11:32 AM rjmcmahon <rjmcma...@rjmcmahon.com> wrote: > > > >> The 6G is a contiguous 1200MhZ. It has low power indoor (LPI) and very > >> low power (VLP) modes. The pluggable transceiver could be color coded to > >> a chanspec, then the four color map problem can be used by installers > >> per those chanspecs. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_color_theorem > >> > >> There is no CTS with microwave "interference" The high-speed PHY rates > >> combined with low-density AP/STA ratios, ideally 1/1, decrease the > >> probability of time signal superpositions. The goal with wireless isn't > >> high densities but to unleash humans. A bunch of humans stuck in a dog > >> park isn't really being unleashed. It's the ability to move from block > >> to block so-to-speak. FiWi is cheaper than sidewalks, sanitation > >> systems, etc. > >> > >> The goal now is very low latency. Higher phy rates can achieve that and > >> leave the medium free the vast most of the time and shut down the RRH > >> too. Engineering extra capacity by orders of magnitude is better than > >> AQM. This has been the case in data centers for decades. Congestion? Add > >> a zero (or multiple by 10) > >> > >> Note: None of this is done. This is a 5-10 year project with zero > >> engineering resources assigned. > >> > >> Bob > >>> On Tue, Mar 14, 2023 at 5:11 PM Robert McMahon > >>> <rjmcma...@rjmcmahon.com> wrote: > >>> > >>>> the AP needs to blast a CTS so every other possible conversation has > >>>> to halt. > >>> > >>> The wireless network is not a bus. This still ignores the hidden > >>> transmitter problem because there is a similar network in the next > >>> room. > >> > >_______________________________________________ > Bloat mailing list > bl...@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat > _______________________________________________ > Rpm mailing list > r...@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/rpm -- Come Heckle Mar 6-9 at: https://www.understandinglatency.com/ Dave Täht CEO, TekLibre, LLC _______________________________________________ Starlink mailing list Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink
