ISPs like Orange are into extending the life of the routers they give for Internet access, which are built for that: https://www.orange.com/en/commitments/oranges-commitment/to-the-environment
France has introduced a repairability index for products, so you know better what are you buying: https://www.ecologie.gouv.fr/indice-reparabilite Then, there is the one from iFixit: https://www.ifixit.com/News/49319/why-ifixits-repair-scores-are-different-than-the-french-repair-index Wondering what repairability index would have the Starlink terminals all around the world. Regards, David > Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2023 18:08:41 -0400 > From: dan <[email protected]> > To: Dave Taht <[email protected]> > Cc: Rpm <[email protected]>, libreqos > <[email protected]>, Bruce Perens <[email protected]>, > Dave Taht via Starlink <[email protected]>, bloat > <[email protected]>, David Lang <[email protected]> > Subject: Re: [Starlink] [Rpm] [Bloat] [LibreQoS] On FiWi > Message-ID: > <caa_jp8w4b6ixcyjijj8fya+paxpltljvvkh5-dgjb-uaanc...@mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > On Mar 15, 2023 at 4:04:27 PM, Dave Taht <[email protected]> wrote: > >> On Wed, Mar 15, 2023 at 2:52 PM David Lang <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> >> On Wed, 15 Mar 2023, Dave Taht wrote: >> >> >> > On Wed, Mar 15, 2023 at 12:33 PM David Lang via Rpm >> >> > <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> if you want another example of the failure, look at any conference >> center, they >> >> >> have a small number of APs with wide coverage. It works well when the >> place is >> >> >> empty and they walk around and test it, but when it fills up with >> users, the >> >> >> entire network collapses. >> >> >> >> >> >> Part of this is that wifi was really designed for sparse environments, >> so it's >> >> >> solution to "I didn't get my message through" is to talk slower (and >> louder if >> >> >> possible), which just creates more interference for other users and >> reduces the >> >> >> available airtime. >> >> >> >> >> >> I just finished the Scale conference in Pasadena, CA. We deployed over >> 100 APs >> >> >> for the conference, up to 7 in a room, on the floor (so that the >> attendees >> >> >> bodies attenuate the signal) at low power so that the channels could be >> re-used >> >> >> more readily. >> >> > >> >> > How did it go? You were deploying fq_codel on the wndr3800s there as >> >> > of a few years ago, and I remember you got rave reviews... (can you >> >> > repost the link to that old data/blog/podcast?) >> >> >> no good stats this year. still using the wndr3800s. Lots of people >> commenting on >> >> how well the network did, but we were a bit behind this year and didn't >> get good >> >> monitoring in place. No cake yet. >> >> >> I think this is what you mean >> >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UXvGbEYeWp0 >> >> >> >> A point I would like to make for the africa contingent here is that >> you do not need the latest >> technology for africa. We get 300Mbit out of hardware built in the >> late 00s, like the wndr3800. The ath9k chipset is STILL manufactured, >> the software mature, and for all I know millions of routers >> like these are lying in junk bins worldwide, ready to be recycled and >> reflashed. >> >> One libreqos customer deployed libreqos, and took a look at the 600+ >> ubnt AGWs (ath9k based), on the shelf that could be fq_codeled, >> especially on the wifi... built a custom openwrt imagebuilder image >> for em, reflashed and redistributed them. >> >> The wndr3800s were especially well built. I would expect them to last >> decades. I had one failure of one that had been in the field for over >> 10 years... I thought it was the flash chip... no, it was the power >> supply! >> >> >> > Did you get any good stats? >> >> > >> >> > Run cake anywhere? >> >> >> >> >> >> in the cell phone world they discovered 'microcells' years ago, but >> with wifi >> >> >> too many people are still trying to cover the max area with the fewest >> possible >> >> >> number of radios. As Dan says, it just doesn't work. >> >> >> >> >> >> and on mesh radios, you need to not just use a different channel for >> your >> >> >> uplink, you need a different band to avoid desense on the connection to >> your >> >> >> users. And that uplink is going to have the same hidden transmitter and >> airtime >> >> >> problems competing with the other nodes also doing the uplink that it's >> >> >> scalability is very limited (even with directional antennas). >> Wire/fiber for the >> >> >> uplink is much better. >> >> >> >> >> >> David Lang >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Wed, 15 Mar >> >> >> 2023, dan via Bloat wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >>> Trying to do all of what is currently wanted with 1 AP in a house is a >> huge >> >> >>> part of the current problems with WiFi networks. MOAR power to try to >> >> >>> overcome attenuation and reflections from walls so more power bleeds >> into >> >> >>> the next home/suite/apartment etc. >> >> >>> >> >> >>> In the MSP space it's been rapidly moving to an AP per room with >> >>> output >> >> >>> turned down to minimum. Doing this we can reused 5Ghz channels 50ft >> away >> >> >>> (through 2 walls etc...) without interference. >> >> >>> >> >> >>> One issue with the RRH model is that to accomplish this 'light bulb' >> model, >> >> >>> ie you put a light bulb in the room you want light, is that it >> >>> requires >> >> >>> infrastructure cabling. 1 RRH AP in a house is already a failure >> today and >> >> >>> accounts for most access complaints. >> >> >>> >> >> >>> Mesh radios have provided a bit of a gap fill, getting the access SSID >> >> >>> closer to the device and backhauling on a separate channel with better >> (and >> >> >>> likely fixed position ) antennas. >> >> >>> >> >> >>> regardless of my opinion on the full on failure of moving firewall off >> prem >> >> >>> and the associated security risks and liabilities, single AP in a home >> is >> >> >>> already a proven failure that has given rise to the mesh systems that >> are >> >> >>> top sellers and top performers today. >> >> >>> >> >> >>> IMO, there was a scheme that gained a moment of fame and then died out >> of >> >> >>> powerline networking and an AP per room off that powerline network. I >> have >> >> >>> some of these deployed with mikrotik PLA adapters and the model works >> >> >>> fantastically, but the powerline networking has evolved slowly so I'm >> >> >>> seeing ~200Mbps practical speeds, and the mikrotik units have 802.11n >> >> >>> radios in them so also a bit of a struggle for modern speeds. This >> model, >> >> >>> with some development to get ~2.5Gbps practical speeds, and WiFi6 or >> WiFi7 >> >> >>> per room at very low output power, is a very practical and deployable >> by >> >> >>> consumers setup. >> >> >>> >> >> >>> WiFi7 also solves some pieces of this with AP coordination and >> >> >>> co-transmission, sort of like a MUMIMO with multiple APs, and that's >> >>> in >> >> >>> early devices already (TPLINK just launched an AP). >> >> >>> >> >> >>> IMO, too many hurdles for RRH models from massive amounts of >> unfrastructure >> >> >>> to build, homes and appartment buildings that need re-wired, security >> and >> >> >>> liability concerns of homes and business not being firewall isolated >> >>> by >> >> >>> stakeholders of those networks. >> >> >>> >> >> >>> On Wed, Mar 15, 2023 at 11:32 AM rjmcmahon <[email protected]> >> wrote: >> >> >>> >> >> >>>> The 6G is a contiguous 1200MhZ. It has low power indoor (LPI) and >> >>>> very >> >> >>>> low power (VLP) modes. The pluggable transceiver could be color coded >> to >> >> >>>> a chanspec, then the four color map problem can be used by installers >> >> >>>> per those chanspecs. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_color_theorem >> >> >>>> >> >> >>>> There is no CTS with microwave "interference" The high-speed PHY >> >>>> rates >> >> >>>> combined with low-density AP/STA ratios, ideally 1/1, decrease the >> >> >>>> probability of time signal superpositions. The goal with wireless >> isn't >> >> >>>> high densities but to unleash humans. A bunch of humans stuck in a >> >>>> dog >> >> >>>> park isn't really being unleashed. It's the ability to move from >> >>>> block >> >> >>>> to block so-to-speak. FiWi is cheaper than sidewalks, sanitation >> >> >>>> systems, etc. >> >> >>>> >> >> >>>> The goal now is very low latency. Higher phy rates can achieve that >> and >> >> >>>> leave the medium free the vast most of the time and shut down the RRH >> >> >>>> too. Engineering extra capacity by orders of magnitude is better than >> >> >>>> AQM. This has been the case in data centers for decades. Congestion? >> Add >> >> >>>> a zero (or multiple by 10) >> >> >>>> >> >> >>>> Note: None of this is done. This is a 5-10 year project with zero >> >> >>>> engineering resources assigned. >> >> >>>> >> >> >>>> Bob >> >> >>>>> On Tue, Mar 14, 2023 at 5:11 PM Robert McMahon >> >> >>>>> <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> >>>>> >> >> >>>>>> the AP needs to blast a CTS so every other possible conversation >> >>>>>> has >> >> >>>>>> to halt. >> >> >>>>> >> >> >>>>> The wireless network is not a bus. This still ignores the hidden >> >> >>>>> transmitter problem because there is a similar network in the next >> >> >>>>> room. >> >> >>>> >> >> >>> _______________________________________________ >> >> >> Bloat mailing list >> >> >> [email protected] >> >> >> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> >> Rpm mailing list >> >> >> [email protected] >> >> >> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/rpm >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> >> >> >> -- >> Come Heckle Mar 6-9 at: https://www.understandinglatency.com/ >> Dave Täht CEO, TekLibre, LLC >> > > Much of the hardware dumped on the US market in particular is especially > poorly made. Ie, engineered for our disposable market. Lots of netgear > products for example have a typical usable life of just 2-3 years if that, > and then the caps have busted or some patina on the boards has killed them. > > > I know Europe has some standards on this as well as South Korea to give > them longer life. To the point, it’s not realistic to recycle these items > from the US to other place because they were ‘built to fail’. > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: > <https://lists.bufferbloat.net/pipermail/starlink/attachments/20230315/5ca4404e/attachment.html> > > ------------------------------ > > Subject: Digest Footer > > _______________________________________________ > Starlink mailing list > [email protected] > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink > > > ------------------------------ > > End of Starlink Digest, Vol 24, Issue 37 > **************************************** > _______________________________________________ Starlink mailing list [email protected] https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink
