Now you are talking about the real problem, how to get the ISPs to listen. It's
not bandwidth.
David Lang
On Tue, 30 Apr 2024, Eugene Y Chang via Starlink wrote:
Frank,
Thank you. What you suggest makes sense if it was objective!
In my neighborhood, the ISP’s organization will feel they have nothing to learn
from outsiders. (Worst, both major ISPs are just a subsidiary of another
organization. They just implement corporate standards. The local managers are
not motivated to deviate from their corporate marching orders.)
A public promotion (campaign) of modern best practices is needed. Then I need
to have this campaign spill over to the subscriber community. The business
community needs to be educated that their productivity will improve. The social
leaders need to learn that their community will get better service. Then, and
only then, can I see the ISP feeling the need to improve. It helps if the
improvement is just open-source software on their hardware investment.
Gene
----------------------------------------------
Eugene Chang
IEEE Life Senior Member
On Apr 30, 2024, at 11:35 AM, Frantisek Borsik <frantisek.bor...@gmail.com>
wrote:
Eugene - the easiest thing in the case of your ISP would be tell him about us:
https://libreqos.io <https://libreqos.io/>
He can take a look on it, join our support chat and get help if he won't be able to
get it up and running: https://chat.libreqos.io/join/fvu3cerayyaumo377xwvpev6/
<https://chat.libreqos.io/join/fvu3cerayyaumo377xwvpev6/>
But most of the ISPs don't need to talk with us at all, it's easy to deploy.
All the best,
Frank
Frantisek (Frank) Borsik
https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik
<https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik>
Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714
iMessage, mobile: +420775230885
Skype: casioa5302ca
frantisek.bor...@gmail.com <mailto:frantisek.bor...@gmail.com>
On Tue, Apr 30, 2024 at 11:22 PM Eugene Y Chang via Starlink
<starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net <mailto:starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>> wrote:
OK. I need help teaching my ISPs that they can do this without threatening
their business model.
Who can help me?
A public demo? Yes! Are you saying that if our (my) neighborhood ISP adopted
the lessons from the public demo, most of the latency issues would be solved?
What won’t get fixed? How do we make this a widely adopted best practice? Am I
crying over issues that are already fixed? Does this simplify the issues at the
FCC?
Gene
----------------------------------------------
Eugene Chang
IEEE Life Senior Member
On Apr 30, 2024, at 11:07 AM, Dave Taht <dave.t...@gmail.com
<mailto:dave.t...@gmail.com>> wrote:
Just fq codel or cake everything and you get all that.
Libreqos is free software for those that do not want to update their data
plane. Perhaps we should do a public demo of what it can do for every tech on
the planet. Dsl benefits, fiber does also (but it is the stats that matter more
on fiber because the customer wifi becomes bloated)
Starlink merely fq codeled their wifi and did some aqm work (not codel I think)
to get the amazing results they are getting today. I don't have the waveform
test results handy but they are amazing. I feel a sea change in the wind...
On Tue, Apr 30, 2024, 12:51 PM Eugene Y Chang via Starlink
<starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net <mailto:starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>> wrote:
Colin,
I am overwhelmed with all the reasons that prevent low(er) or consistent
latency.
I think that our best ISP offerings should deliver graceful, agile, or nimble
service. Sure, handle all the high-volume data. The high-volume service just
shouldn’t preclude graceful service. Yes, the current ISP practices fall short.
Can we help them improve their service?
Am I asking too much?
Gene
----------------------------------------------
Eugene Chang
IEEE Life Senior Member
On Apr 30, 2024, at 9:31 AM, Colin_Higbie via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
<mailto:starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>> wrote:
Gene,
I think the lion's share of other people (many brilliant people here) on this
thread are focused on keeping latency down when under load. I generally just
read and don't contribute on those discussions, because that's not my area of
expertise. I only posted my point on bandwidth, not to detract from the
importance of reducing latency, but to correct what I believed to be an
important error on minimum bandwidth required to be able to perform standard
Internet functions.
To my surprise, there was pushback on the figure, so I've responded to try to
educate this group on streaming usage in the hope that the people working on
the latency problem under load (core reason for this group to exist) can also
be aware of the minimum bandwidth needs to ensure they don't plan based on bad
assumptions.
For a single user, minimum bandwidth (independent of latency) needs to be at
least 25Mbps assuming the goal is to provide access to all standard Internet
services. Anything short of that will deny users access to the primary
streaming services, and more specifically won't be able to watch 4K HDR video,
which is the market standard for streaming services today and likely will
remain at that level for the next several years.
I think it's fine to offer lower-cost options that don't deliver 4K HDR video
(not everyone cares about that), but at least 25Mbps should be available to an
Internet customer for any new Internet service rollout.
Cheers,
Colin
-----Original Message-----
From: Starlink <starlink-boun...@lists.bufferbloat.net
<mailto:starlink-boun...@lists.bufferbloat.net>> On Behalf Of
starlink-requ...@lists.bufferbloat.net <mailto:starlink-requ...@lists.bufferbloat.net>
Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2024 3:05 PM
To: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net <mailto:starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>
Subject: Starlink Digest, Vol 37, Issue 15
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2024 09:04:43 -1000
From: Eugene Y Chang <eugene.ch...@ieee.org <mailto:eugene.ch...@ieee.org>>
To: Colin_Higbie <chigb...@higbie.name <mailto:chigb...@higbie.name>>, Dave
Taht via Starlink
<starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net <mailto:starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>>
Subject: Re: [Starlink] It’s the Latency, FCC
Message-ID: <438b1bc4-d465-497a-b6ba-700e1d411...@ieee.org
<mailto:438b1bc4-d465-497a-b6ba-700e1d411...@ieee.org>>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
I am always surprised how complicated these discussions become. (Surprised
mostly because I forgot the kind of issues this community care about.) The
discussion doesn’t shed light on the following scenarios.
While watching stream content, activating controls needed to switch content
sometimes (often?) have long pauses. I attribute that to buffer bloat and high
latency.
With a happy household user watching streaming media, a second user could have
terrible shopping experience with Amazon. The interactive response could be (is
often) horrible. (Personally, I would be doing email and working on a shared
doc. The Amazon analogy probably applies to more people.)
How can we deliver graceful performance to both persons in a household?
Is seeking graceful performance too complicated to improve?
(I said “graceful” to allow technical flexibility.)
Gene
----------------------------------------------
Eugene Chang
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