STOP NATO: �NO PASARAN! - HTTP://WWW.STOPNATO.ORG.UK To: [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 07:16:41 Subject: Re: Question about the list....... [STOPNATO.ORG.UK [STOPN Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hello again..... > Send reply to: "STOP NATO: iNO PASARAN!" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Date sent: Tue, 29 May 2001 13:34:26 EDT > Subject: Re: Question about the list....... [STOPNATO.ORG.UK [STOPNATO.ORG.UK] > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > STOP NATO: iNO PASARAN! - HTTP://WWW.STOPNATO.ORG.UK > > --------------------------- ListBot Sponsor -------------------------- > Get a low APR NextCard Visa in 30 seconds! > 1. Fill in the brief application > 2. Receive approval decision within 30 seconds > 3. Get rates as low as 2.99% Intro or 9.99% Ongoing APR and no > annual fee! > Apply NOW! > http://www.bcentral.com/listbot/NextCard > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > In a message dated 29/05/01 02:44:21 Eastern Daylight Time, > [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > > << the dividing line in terms of what I love doesn't start and > stop where there is a line on a map. That is totally > irrational. And irrational beliefs breed hatred and violence. >> > > > Maybe love of one's country is irrational for you, but for most peoples in > the Third World who fought anti-colonial revolutions, lost countless friends > and family members to have their OWN country and not one run by a distant > imperialist power, those borders actually mean something...If borders > disappeared tomorrow who would rule? Not the great majority of humanity, > rest assured of that, it would only further consolidate the hegemony of the > neoliberal technocrats entrenched in Western governments and the major > international financial instutions... I know of no evidence that the withering away of borders would make that sort of control of the world any worse... > > You see people love "their" country's and "their" borders because the > alternative is a global autocracy of unrivaled proportions (this isn't > hyperbole, but the way most people in the global South see the "post-Cold War > era)...I LOVE my country, because I treasure the FREEDOM of my people What do you mean "my people" - that sounds almost racist.... > ...yes > there are degrees of freedom, but there is a marked difference between a > domestic tyrant and the complete abject humiliation of being submitted to > foreign occupation...of course as a Briton you are in a fortunate position > were you have never experienced this... I think this is a racist red herring - the degree to which I object to someone pushing me around depends simply on objective factors - such as how much I don't want to do what they're trying to make me do, and what the possibilities are to resist and change the situation - where the person pushing me around comes from is an irrelevance. If the choice was between a British ruler pushing me around more, or a "foreigner" pushing me around less, I'd naturally go for the "foreigner" - any other decision would be racist.. > but this doesn't mean that everyone > lives the priveleged, "cosmopolitan" life you are fortunate to have...Please > mister Beale do not engage in Benedict Anderson's musings on "imagined > communities" as if identity were the same as the color of your car, I am insulted that you think I would possess a car. Even if I could afford one - which I couldn't - I would certainly not buy one. > the type > of hair-cut you want or the pattern of your on-screen wallpaper! If > "identity" and > "country" mean nothing to you, they mean alot to the poor and oppressed...yes > ideally nationalism, as another form of tribalism, would be done away with, > but I would rather take today's nationalisms (which BTW are often expressions > of alternative universal value systems) over the monoculture that dominates, > thank you very much... > That you think it natural to possess a car, or "on-screen wallpaper" means that you are the one with the privileged - and exploitative - lifestyle. > Questions: Is Fidel Castro a nationalist? Does this make him less > progressive? There are other things about Castro that are perhaps more important, as signs of his less progressive nature, than his nationalism is. > Given Chinese history would you not also be a nationalist? > Should Chavez abandon his "nationalist" policies in Venezuela > and revert to > the decidedly anti-national position of the previous elite which believed in > subordination to the USA? Or wait am I talking about history, another wholly > "irrelevant" and "irrational" construct in the mind of Western liberals? > > Yes Mr. Beale, things aren't black or white, they are more often than not > many hues and shades of gray, but forgive me if I choose to stand in my patch > of gray as opposed to yours. Critique is useful to reform broken systems or > change unjust orders, but critique can also be used to deligitimize the poor > and oppressed, in fact it is often what keeps them down...you have been given > usefull tools and a sharp intelect to wield, be VERY careful how you use > them, because a wrong word directed to the wrong person at the wrong time can > have disastrous consequences...try empathizing with others more, > understanding why they value things like a "country" or "history" so > much...yes, like every notion they too can be abused, but it doesn't mean > that they are meaningless...The great progressive movements of the 50s 60s > 70s 80s and 90s - i.e. liberation of Third World and decolonization - were > all decidedly "nationalist", are you to tell me now that they too were > reactionary??? Inasmuch as they were nationalist - though I don't agree that all the "great progressive movements" of the last 50 years were nationalist - then of course they were to that extent reactionary. > Thank you very much Mr. Beale, but I'll take my patch of grey > anyday before yours...your welcome to continue standing were > you are, but > don't be suprised if your entreaties elicit hostile reactions from the > vicious, non-domesticated, breed of Third World activist who doesn't feel > like kow-towing and courtseying to what "mastah" says and does...we have the > power to define our own interests, the West for too long has set the terms of > the debate...b/c when it really comes down to Western activists are bit > players in the struggle for global emancipation (although there egoes would > never allow them to admit this to themselves)... > > cheers! > Kosta > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > To unsubscribe, write to [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Thank you for your thoughts. I hope I might have time to deal with them more fully later. Albert _________________________________________________ | | | From: | | Albert Beale, Housmans Peace Resource Project | | 5 Caledonian Road, Kings Cross, London N1, UK | | Tel +44-20-7278 4474 Fax +44-20-7278 0444 | | E-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] | | | | The Project produces the World Peace Database | | which includes up-to-date contact details for | | over 3000 peace and related organisations, in | | more than 170 countries. | |_________________________________________________| ______________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe, write to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Question about the list....... [STOPNATO.ORG.UK [STOPN [WWW.STOPNATO.ORG.UK]
Housmans Peace Resource Project Thu, 31 May 2001 01:19:49 -0700
