Dear Otto,
Best of luck with SINTEF regarding setting up an international QC
program for small stoves. It should pay for itself once established and
stove producers see the advantage of joining the program. The key will
be getting NGAs convinced to only purchase stoves on the list - then the
program will take off. We are providing lab support for two such
programs now (compost and biodegradable plastics) and would like to be
involved with testing small stoves as a certified, independent lab.
The parts of such a program might be as follows:
1) Test methods manual and group to keep updated and current.
2) Lab certificated program complete with continued Round-Robin testing
3) Marketing group to promote the program
4) etc.
Cost to labs would be to pay for joining the organization and cost to
run the QC (round-robin and data collection and distribution).
Cost to stove producers would be joining the organization and having
their stoves tested and results published.
The organization:
1) organizes a group to produce a test manual and distribute it to labs
(at a cost).
2) Big on marketing; conferences, and sub-groups for running all the
groups involved.
Something like that. The organizers for the compost program started
making money after a few lean years.
Frank
fes
Otto Formo wrote:
Dear Frank,
I very much agree with you.
Tests according to protocol should be run by certified and indepemdent labs and
you should compare - apples to apples, not like it is to day.
The independent aspect is the most important one, either you produce stoves and
let others do the testing or you do the testing as an independent reserach
center and let others produce the stoves.
Internal testing should of cource continue, but to be "approved" by the GACC,
tests should be done by independent research centres world wide.
That should be the one and only way forward.
Iam about to contact SINTEF, Norwegian Institute of Technology, Department of
Mechanical Engineering, Thermal Energy Division in Norway about these issues,
right now.
Otto
From: Frank Shields [[email protected]]
Sent: 2011-01-20 19:04:44 MET
To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves [[email protected]]
Subject: Re: [Stoves] Testing and Development Laboratories
Tom, Crispin and Stovers,
But first we need to get organized. Common testing protocol run by
certified labs -so apples to apples. This takes an organization and
money to put it all together. Otherwise we get nowhere as I see it.
Having a list of all the labs working on stoves is a -great- start.
Getting the labs to send SOP's to a central organization that wants to
take on organization the QC program may be a second. Publish the
collection of SOP's for distribution for comment could be a third. Then
picking ones for all labs to use a fourth. Organizing a protocol to
update, add to, remove test methods a fifth. Something like that.
Otherwise Crispins work helps him develop his stoves and Aprovecho
methods help them better their stoves - but Crispins data cannot be
compared to the data Aprovecho produces and the stoves they both produce
cannot be compared to each other until the same protocol is used and an
independent certified lab does the testing.
Regards
Frank
Tom Miles wrote:
Crispin,
Good examples and great ideas.
Thanks
Tom
*From:* [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] *On Behalf Of
*Crispin Pemberton-Pigott
*Sent:* Wednesday, January 19, 2011 2:01 PM
*To:* 'Discussion of biomass cooking stoves'
*Subject:* Re: [Stoves] Testing and Development Laboratories
Dear Tom
We need a bigger testing footprint. Many many stove are promoted
without people have a real clue as to their fuel saving or emissions
profile and the reason is primarily no access to any testing or the
testing was not relevant, not even to mention its accuracy.
The reason for asking is that one way to stimulate stove improvement
might be enable producers to access and get support from labs.
I believe the progress made by John Davies, on his own, was in good
measure because real time testing could show him what was and was not
better, sifting through his hunches about how things should work.
Maybe he can support that. It certainly helped me. I was stuck in
?visual land? until I was handed a small combustion analyser.
I have seen situations where a design gets "stuck" without being
further developed due to lack of technical support.
That support is the sort of thing you get at the SEET lab: bring it I,
make it perform, we will let you know what we think would make it
better, then demonstrate it to convince you. Emissions reductions by a
factor of 10 are routine with this method.
Organizations involved in production and dissemination often don't
have the appropriate resources.
It is a good use of Global Alliance funds because perhaps 100 new
products are needed.
What would labs need funding support for? Equipment? Personnel?
Conducting tests, design and development? Or all of these?
All those and post-grads. I have been trying to get 5 physics students
into the SEET lab for more than a year with no success. No one will
look ahead 5 years to the time when we need a new coterie of people
skilled at testing and familiar with the issues of standard setting
and certification (implying legislation and inspection).
Design and Development has to be backed up by access to real time
emissions and thermal efficiency testing. The task-based approach
often used till now hides too many thing and can waste a great deal of
effort.
Take a look at the attached charts. There is only one small difference
between these two tests (same stove) something detected in a real time
examination of the emissions.
Regards
Crispin
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