Dear Anand, Thanks for the confirmation of the experience given from Crista as well.
To my belive, we should "stop" talking about chimneys and focus on clean burning stoves as a number one priority, since they have "no problem" to deal with "bad" chimneys. A cloged chimney can, in a worst cenario, cause the whole house and espcialy a thatched roof, to burn down. Governments does not allways have the best and smartest solutions at hand. A well prepared three stone fire with proper dry fuelwood in a well ventilated room, is a safer solution than a nice looking stove with risks of a cloged chimney. Every day gives us new and important lessons. Otto > From: Anand Karve [[email protected]] > Sent: 2012-02-11 06:53:49 MET > To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves [[email protected]] > Subject: Re: [Stoves] Grates and chimneys > > Our Institute participated in the National Programme on Improved > Cookstoves, implemented by the Government of India from 1984 to 2002. This > programme mainly promoted stoves with chimneys. At least in the State of > Maharashtra, where we had been operating, the chimneys clogged after about > 3 to 4 months of use. A normal housewife would not climb up on a thatched > roof to clean the chimney, and the husband would not bother to have > anything to do with a cookstove. A choked chimney in the case of a stove > designed to have a chimney is worse than a traditional stove without a > chimney. So the frustated housewife would just stop using the so called > improved stove and revert back to using the traditional stove. We > were appointed by the government to monitor the programme in our state. > When our volunteers visited the village about 6 months after the > implementation of the programme, we found that most of the households had > stopped using the improved cookstoves and had reverted back to the > traditional stoves. Even in those days, we had developed good stoves > without chimneys, but the guidelines laid down by the Government would not > allow chimneyless stoves to be installed under the government's programme. > Yours > A.D.Karve > > On Thu, Feb 9, 2012 at 7:24 AM, Xavier Brandao <[email protected]>wrote: > > > Dear Roger, > > > > Sorry for being brusk, I didn't mean to offend anyone! My question was > > rather asked under a naive tone, I wanted to push the debate further. I > > should reformulate it. I wanted to ask people on the list: > > - how long does it take, on average and in the region of operation, for > > your > > chimney stoves or the chimney stoves you know before they clog up? > > - from your experience, what do users do when the stove clogs up? Do they > > contact the manufacturer, or a local chimney sweep? > > - do the manufacturers include regular sweeps along with the stoves > > distribution, to prevent the housewife from getting rid of the chimney + > > stove all at once when it clogs up? > > > > I tend to think that users of rural areas in developing countries which are > > not accustomed to chimney stoves do not instinctively think about sweeping > > the chimney. But then, if the chimney does clog up only after, say, 5 to 6 > > years, one could think this is not such a major issue. > > > > Regards, > > > > Xavier > > > > P.S: very nice stove by the way. > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: [email protected] > > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of > > [email protected] > > Sent: mercredi 8 février 2012 19:00 > > To: [email protected] > > Subject: Stoves Digest, Vol 18, Issue 9 > > > > Send Stoves mailing list submissions to > > [email protected] > > > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > > > > > > http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists > > .org > > > > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > > [email protected] > > > > You can reach the person managing the list at > > [email protected] > > > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > > than "Re: Contents of Stoves digest..." > > > > > > Today's Topics: > > > > 1. Grates and chimneys (Xavier Brandao) > > 2. Re: Grates and chimneys (Crispin Pemberton-Pigott) > > 3. Re: Grates ([email protected]) > > 4. Re: Grates and chimneys ([email protected]) > > 5. Re: Grates and chimneys (Crispin Pemberton-Pigott) > > 6. Re: advice for chimney wood stove for rural Burkina Faso > > (Anand Karve) > > 7. Re: advice for chimney wood stove for rural Burkina Faso > > (Crispin Pemberton-Pigott) > > 8. Re: Grates and chimneys (Fireside Hearth) > > 9. Re: Grates and chimneys (Otto Formo) > > 10. Re: Grates and chimneys (Ronald Hongsermeier) > > 11. Re: Grates and chimneys (Ronald Hongsermeier) > > 12. Re: Grates and chimneys (Paul S. Anderson) > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > Message: 1 > > Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2012 23:59:35 +0100 > > From: "Xavier Brandao" <[email protected]> > > To: <[email protected]> > > Subject: [Stoves] Grates and chimneys > > Message-ID: <[email protected]> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > > > " It is unfortunate that people produce stoves that have chimneys, but are > > not actually clean-burning." > > Do we actually have chimney stoves that do not clog up after few > > months/years? Even the cleanest stoves? Is it a good idea to build chimney > > stoves at all? > > > > "Your grate price is good! I think we should be jealous! It would be so > > nice to be able to get good parts in cast iron." > > Hell yes, I can make 1 dollar iron grates, but I wish we could make 1 > > dollar > > cast iron grates in Benin. In fact, cast iron is very rare in Benin (West > > Africa? Africa?). When Africa will have the industrial production > > capacities > > of Asia, things will change! > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > Message: 4 > > Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2012 00:14:57 -0500 > > From: "Crispin Pemberton-Pigott" <[email protected]> > > To: "'Discussion of biomass cooking stoves'" > > <[email protected]> > > Subject: Re: [Stoves] advice for chimney wood stove for rural Burkina > > Faso > > Message-ID: <[email protected]> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > > > Dear AD > > > > > > > > Your story is not very unusual. It is unfortunate that people produce > > stoves > > that have chimneys, but are not actually clean-burning. My point is that > > just because one produces a chimney stove is no excuse not to use that > > additional expense to create the draft needed to completely burn the fuel. > > Astonishing really. > > > > > > > > I wonder if there is too much emphasis on 'clean indoor air' without enough > > emphasis on 'not needing to worry about clean indoor air' in the first > > place. > > > > > > > > That level of deposition is depressing. I heard about a stove being > > produced > > in the tea country high in Kenya which is used for space heating and > > cooking, According to the designer the 3 inch chimney would clog after > > three > > months. That is ridiculous! What kind of crummy combustion is that? > > > > > > > > A chimney is as good as a fan - especially 3.5 metres. Fan stoves are > > supposed to be really clean or you have not done a good job. Shoving bad > > combustion outside does not solve much. The situation in Ulaanbaatar is > > exactly like that. No one has a stove without a chimney. The air outside is > > so polluted that it is contaminating the air drawn into the homes. So the > > chimney solved nothing - the problem is the stove. > > > > > > > > Your grate price is good! I think we should be jealous! It would be so > > nice > > to be able to get good parts in cast iron. > > > > > > > > Thanks > > > > Crispin > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Message: 2 > > Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2012 21:45:12 -0500 > > From: "Crispin Pemberton-Pigott" <[email protected]> > > To: "'Discussion of biomass cooking stoves'" > > <[email protected]> > > Subject: Re: [Stoves] Grates and chimneys > > Message-ID: <[email protected]> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > > > Dear Xavier > > > > The only place I have seen cast iron available with my own eyes outside > > South Africa was in Kenya, Nakuru actually. That means there must be more > > in > > the region, probably Tanzania too. > > > > In all cases, when you can, use the deformed reinforcing steel bars which > > are available everywhere. They have more carbon and last longer than mild > > steel round bars. You can case-harden them if you have to, in a > > charcoal-filled box. > > > > Regards > > Crispin > > > > ...Hell yes, I can make 1 dollar iron grates, but I wish we could make 1 > > dollar cast iron grates in Benin. In fact, cast iron is very rare in Benin > > (West Africa? Africa?). When Africa will have the industrial production > > capacities of Asia, things will change! > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Message: 3 > > Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2012 02:51:27 +0000 > > From: [email protected] > > To: "Stoves list" <[email protected]> > > Subject: Re: [Stoves] Grates > > Message-ID: > > > > > > <1454248977-1328669486-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-2032979070-@ > > b13.c14.bise7.blackberry> > > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" > > > > We make long lasting grates in our Maasai project out of 12 and 6 mm > > re-bar. > > Bent and welded. > > > > Bob Lange > > Sent from my BlackBerry? smartphone provided by Airtel Tanzania. > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: "Crispin Pemberton-Pigott" <[email protected]> > > Sender: [email protected] > > Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2012 21:45:12 > > To: 'Discussion of biomass cooking stoves'<[email protected] > > > > > Reply-To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves > > <[email protected]> > > Subject: Re: [Stoves] Grates and chimneys > > > > Dear Xavier > > > > The only place I have seen cast iron available with my own eyes outside > > South Africa was in Kenya, Nakuru actually. That means there must be more > > in > > the region, probably Tanzania too. > > > > In all cases, when you can, use the deformed reinforcing steel bars which > > are available everywhere. They have more carbon and last longer than mild > > steel round bars. You can case-harden them if you have to, in a > > charcoal-filled box. > > > > Regards > > Crispin > > > > ...Hell yes, I can make 1 dollar iron grates, but I wish we could make 1 > > dollar cast iron grates in Benin. In fact, cast iron is very rare in Benin > > (West Africa? Africa?). When Africa will have the industrial production > > capacities of Asia, things will change! > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Stoves mailing list > > > > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address > > [email protected] > > > > to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page > > > > http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists > > .org > > > > for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site: > > http://www.bioenergylists.org/ > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Message: 4 > > Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2012 22:30:24 -0500 (EST) > > From: [email protected] > > To: [email protected] > > Subject: Re: [Stoves] Grates and chimneys > > Message-ID: <[email protected]> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > > > > > In a message dated 2/7/2012 9:45:41 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, > > [email protected] writes: > > > > DD: Dan Dimiduk comments. > > > > The only place I have seen cast iron available with my own eyes outside > > South Africa was in Kenya, Nakuru actually. That means there must be more > > in > > the region, probably Tanzania too. > > > > > > > > > > Build a charcoal cupola and start making crude sand castings. It really > > cannot be that difficult. Iron age men made iron from rock. Modern men can > > pour recycled iron from clay into sand molds. > > > > Dan Dimiduk > > -------------- next part -------------- > > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > > URL: > > < > > http://lists.bioenergylists.org/pipermail/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org/a > > ttachments/20120207/c87b3eae/attachment-0001.html> > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Message: 5 > > Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2012 23:58:35 -0500 > > From: "Crispin Pemberton-Pigott" <[email protected]> > > To: "'Discussion of biomass cooking stoves'" > > <[email protected]> > > Subject: Re: [Stoves] Grates and chimneys > > Message-ID: <[email protected]> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > > > Dear Dan > > > > > > > > In principle yes, but it is way easier to use some old engine oil, a diesel > > injector and a fan. The main reason is control of the temperature. Being > > off > > by 30 degrees can make a big difference, and we are talking about the 1540 > > C > > range. I have seen overheated cast iron blow back out of the mould like a > > volcano. Spectacular, and bright red! > > > > > > > > I visited a guy in Ulaanbaatar who had a 500 kW induction furnace left over > > from somewhere and he made all sorts of (low quality) products like cast > > iron fencing and stove tops. He did not own a pyrometer, instead judging > > the > > temperature by eye and experience. The problem was that he was the only guy > > in the firm who could do that which means he had to be there for every > > pour, > > day and night. You can imagine how difficult it was to get a consistent > > stove part. > > > > > > > > Regards > > > > Crispin > > > > > > > > PS how's biz? > > > > > > > > Build a charcoal cupola and start making crude sand castings. It really > > cannot be that difficult. Iron age men made iron from rock. Modern men can > > pour recycled iron from clay into sand molds. > > > > > > > > Dan Dimiduk > > > > -------------- next part -------------- > > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > > URL: > > < > > http://lists.bioenergylists.org/pipermail/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org/a > > ttachments/20120207/df2bf91d/attachment-0001.html> > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Message: 6 > > Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2012 13:45:00 +0800 > > From: Anand Karve <[email protected]> > > To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves > > <[email protected]> > > Subject: Re: [Stoves] advice for chimney wood stove for rural Burkina > > Faso > > Message-ID: > > <cacpy7scfumpxnmyjmk+40wa0wk7g4owu_w-ttsw10xpswzv...@mail.gmail.com > > > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" > > > > Dear Crispin, > > the Government of India started in 1984 a programme called National > > Programme on Improved Cookstoves. At that time, the emphasis was on saving > > wood through high efficiency. One ensured clean indoor air by providing a > > chimney to the stove. In fact all the stove models approved under this > > programme had a chimney. The world-wide emphasis on cleaner burning of the > > fuel came after the year 2000, but by that time, the programme started by > > the Government of India was no longer in existence. The agencies created > > for stove testing and stove approval died a natural death after the end of > > this programme. However, there are still some Government programmes, such > > as free housing for the rural poor, clean village programme etc. in which > > it is mandatory to install the so called improved cookstoves in every > > house. But the implementing agencies only install models that were approved > > under the National Programme on Improved Cookstoves, and even in the case > > of privately funded stoves programmes, the funding agencies insist > > on certified models (i.e.older models with chimney). The more mordern > > stoves based on the principle of Rocket stove, TLUD stove and fan stove get > > neither sponsors nor government's approval. As a result, the modern > > stoves, do not get widely propagated. In the case of a typical rural > > householder, a cleanly burning, modern stove is the last item he would > > spend his money on. He would rather spend it on a mobile phone, television > > or a motor cycle. > > Yours > > A.D.Karve > > > > On Tue, Feb 7, 2012 at 1:14 PM, Crispin Pemberton-Pigott < > > [email protected]> wrote: > > > > > Dear AD**** > > > > > > ** ** > > > > > > Your story is not very unusual. It is unfortunate that people produce > > > stoves that have chimneys, but are not actually clean-burning. My point > > is > > > that just because one produces a chimney stove is no excuse not to use > > that > > > additional expense to create the draft needed to completely burn the > > fuel. > > > Astonishing really. **** > > > > > > ** ** > > > > > > I wonder if there is too much emphasis on ?clean indoor air? without > > > enough emphasis on ?not needing to worry about clean indoor air? in the > > > first place. **** > > > > > > ** ** > > > > > > That level of deposition is depressing. I heard about a stove being > > > produced in the tea country high in Kenya which is used for space heating > > > and cooking, According to the designer the 3 inch chimney would clog > > after > > > three months. That is ridiculous! What kind of crummy combustion is > > that?* > > > *** > > > > > > ** ** > > > > > > A chimney is as good as a fan ? especially 3.5 metres. Fan stoves are > > > supposed to be really clean or you have not done a good job. Shoving bad > > > combustion outside does not solve much. The situation in Ulaanbaatar is > > > exactly like that. No one has a stove without a chimney. The air outside > > is > > > so polluted that it is contaminating the air drawn into the homes. So the > > > chimney solved nothing ? the problem is the stove.**** > > > > > > ** ** > > > > > > Your grate price is good! I think we should be jealous! It would be so > > > nice to be able to get good parts in cast iron.**** > > > > > > ** ** > > > > > > Thanks**** > > > > > > Crispin**** > > > > > > ** ** > > > > > > ** ** > > > > > > Dear Crispin,**** > > > > > > the grate costs about a dollar each, whereas a 3.5 m long chimney having > > a > > > diameter of about 8 cm costs about US$6. Formerly, these chimneys were > > mass > > > produced as water pipes, but nowadays people use plastic pipes for water. > > > There is only one manufacturer in our state who makes the cement > > chimneys, > > > and about 15% of them are found to be broken on arrival. Fixing the > > > chimneys is a tricky business, because one has to make a hole into the > > > ceiling or the roof of the house. If this hole is not properly sealed, > > > rainwater drips through it. After using it for about 3 months, the > > chimney > > > generally gets choked with tar, which is very difficult to remove. Once > > > that happens, the stove produces more smoke than the traditional stove > > used > > > to produce, and disgusted, the housewife removes the improved stove along > > > with the chimney. We have recently installed our chimneyless stoves in > > > about 1000 households under a special programme funded by Cummins (India) > > > Ltd. These stoves are now in operation for almost a year and there are no > > > complaints.**** > > > > > > Yours**** > > > > > > A.D.Karve**** > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Stoves mailing list > > > > > > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address > > > [email protected] > > > > > > to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page > > > > > > > > > > http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists > > .org > > > > > > for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site: > > > http://www.bioenergylists.org/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > *** > > Dr. A.D. Karve > > Trustee & Founder President, Appropriate Rural Technology Institute (ARTI) > > -------------- next part -------------- > > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > > URL: > > < > > http://lists.bioenergylists.org/pipermail/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org/a > > ttachments/20120208/2d4928bb/attachment-0001.html> > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Message: 7 > > Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2012 01:18:21 -0500 > > From: "Crispin Pemberton-Pigott" <[email protected]> > > To: "'Discussion of biomass cooking stoves'" > > <[email protected]> > > Subject: Re: [Stoves] advice for chimney wood stove for rural Burkina > > Faso > > Message-ID: <[email protected]> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > > > Dear AD > > > > >.In the case of a typical rural householder, a cleanly burning, modern > > stove is the last item he would spend his money on. He would rather spend > > it > > on a mobile phone, television or a motor cycle. > > > > And for good reason. > > > > Aarrrrghh! > > > > Crispin > > > > PS It's a boy, says Minaxshi! > > > > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- > > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > > URL: > > < > > http://lists.bioenergylists.org/pipermail/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org/a > > ttachments/20120208/d30a852f/attachment-0001.html> > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Message: 8 > > Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2012 23:37:30 -0800 > > From: Fireside Hearth <[email protected]> > > To: <[email protected]> > > Subject: Re: [Stoves] Grates and chimneys > > Message-ID: <[email protected]> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > > > > > Dear Xavier, > > > > I should be offended, but alas, I will send you a video link > > instead........yes our stove has a chimney! > > > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=vkz6gKLayvc > > > > Roger and Bridget Lehet. > > > > > From: [email protected] > > > To: [email protected] > > > Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2012 23:59:35 +0100 > > > Subject: [Stoves] Grates and chimneys > > > > > > " It is unfortunate that people produce stoves that have chimneys, but > > are > > > not actually clean-burning." > > > Do we actually have chimney stoves that do not clog up after few > > > months/years? Even the cleanest stoves? Is it a good idea to build > > chimney > > > stoves at all? > > > > > > "Your grate price is good! I think we should be jealous! It would be so > > > nice to be able to get good parts in cast iron." > > > Hell yes, I can make 1 dollar iron grates, but I wish we could make 1 > > dollar > > > cast iron grates in Benin. In fact, cast iron is very rare in Benin (West > > > Africa? Africa?). When Africa will have the industrial production > > capacities > > > of Asia, things will change! > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > > Message: 4 > > > Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2012 00:14:57 -0500 > > > From: "Crispin Pemberton-Pigott" <[email protected]> > > > To: "'Discussion of biomass cooking stoves'" > > > <[email protected]> > > > Subject: Re: [Stoves] advice for chimney wood stove for rural Burkina > > > Faso > > > Message-ID: <[email protected]> > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > > > > > Dear AD > > > > > > > > > > > > Your story is not very unusual. It is unfortunate that people produce > > stoves > > > that have chimneys, but are not actually clean-burning. My point is that > > > just because one produces a chimney stove is no excuse not to use that > > > additional expense to create the draft needed to completely burn the > > fuel. > > > Astonishing really. > > > > > > > > > > > > I wonder if there is too much emphasis on 'clean indoor air' without > > enough > > > emphasis on 'not needing to worry about clean indoor air' in the first > > > place. > > > > > > > > > > > > That level of deposition is depressing. I heard about a stove being > > produced > > > in the tea country high in Kenya which is used for space heating and > > > cooking, According to the designer the 3 inch chimney would clog after > > three > > > months. That is ridiculous! What kind of crummy combustion is that? > > > > > > > > > > > > A chimney is as good as a fan - especially 3.5 metres. Fan stoves are > > > supposed to be really clean or you have not done a good job. Shoving bad > > > combustion outside does not solve much. The situation in Ulaanbaatar is > > > exactly like that. No one has a stove without a chimney. The air outside > > is > > > so polluted that it is contaminating the air drawn into the homes. So the > > > chimney solved nothing - the problem is the stove. > > > > > > > > > > > > Your grate price is good! I think we should be jealous! It would be so > > nice > > > to be able to get good parts in cast iron. > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks > > > > > > Crispin > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Stoves mailing list > > > > > > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address > > > [email protected] > > > > > > to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page > > > > > > > http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists > > .org > > > > > > for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site: > > > http://www.bioenergylists.org/ > > > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- > > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > > URL: > > < > > http://lists.bioenergylists.org/pipermail/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org/a > > ttachments/20120207/1cb157f9/attachment-0001.html> > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Message: 9 > > Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2012 11:17:21 +0100 (MET) > > From: Otto Formo <[email protected]> > > To: Fireside Hearth <[email protected]>, > > <[email protected]> > > Subject: Re: [Stoves] Grates and chimneys > > Message-ID: > > <[email protected]> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > > > Dear Roger and Bridget, > > Nice piece of work! > > Even a tray for the ash, most producers of stoves to day seems to "forget" > > that biomass produce ash. (Gasifiers produce little ash) > > I just recall, that you where looking for a stove in combination of heating > > and cooking to fit in a boat or a small cabin. > > Have you tried to ignite the biomass from the top? > > By doing so, you will burn out the gases in the biomass, first, and will > > have a very clean and efficient burn, despite a chimney or not. > > Most people seems to forget, that dry fuel (less than 10% moisture) and > > ignition on top of the fuel, is just as important as an "efficient" stove. > > Have you tried or considered pellets? > > > > What is your retail price? > > I very much agree that such a stove will be very suitable for outdoor > > activities, as well, like in tipies and small cabins in the high mountains. > > > > Have a nice and warm day in Washington. > > > > Good luck. > > > > Otto > > A TLUD ND gasifier fan.............without a fan.......:) > > > > > From: Fireside Hearth [[email protected]] > > > Sent: 2012-02-08 08:37:30 MET > > > To: [email protected] > > > Subject: Re: [Stoves] Grates and chimneys > > > > > > > > > Dear Xavier, > > > > > > I should be offended, but alas, I will send you a video link > > instead........yes our stove has a chimney! > > > > > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=vkz6gKLayvc > > > > > > Roger and Bridget Lehet. > > > > > > > From: [email protected] > > > > To: [email protected] > > > > Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2012 23:59:35 +0100 > > > > Subject: [Stoves] Grates and chimneys > > > > > > > > " It is unfortunate that people produce stoves that have chimneys, but > > are > > > > not actually clean-burning." > > > > Do we actually have chimney stoves that do not clog up after few > > > > months/years? Even the cleanest stoves? Is it a good idea to build > > chimney > > > > stoves at all? > > > > > > > > "Your grate price is good! I think we should be jealous! It would be > > so > > > > nice to be able to get good parts in cast iron." > > > > Hell yes, I can make 1 dollar iron grates, but I wish we could make 1 > > dollar > > > > cast iron grates in Benin. In fact, cast iron is very rare in Benin > > (West > > > > Africa? Africa?). When Africa will have the industrial production > > capacities > > > > of Asia, things will change! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > > > > Message: 4 > > > > Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2012 00:14:57 -0500 > > > > From: "Crispin Pemberton-Pigott" <[email protected]> > > > > To: "'Discussion of biomass cooking stoves'" > > > > <[email protected]> > > > > Subject: Re: [Stoves] advice for chimney wood stove for rural Burkina > > > > Faso > > > > Message-ID: <[email protected]> > > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > > > > > > > Dear AD > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Your story is not very unusual. It is unfortunate that people produce > > stoves > > > > that have chimneys, but are not actually clean-burning. My point is > > that > > > > just because one produces a chimney stove is no excuse not to use that > > > > additional expense to create the draft needed to completely burn the > > fuel. > > > > Astonishing really. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I wonder if there is too much emphasis on 'clean indoor air' without > > enough > > > > emphasis on 'not needing to worry about clean indoor air' in the first > > > > place. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That level of deposition is depressing. I heard about a stove being > > produced > > > > in the tea country high in Kenya which is used for space heating and > > > > cooking, According to the designer the 3 inch chimney would clog after > > three > > > > months. That is ridiculous! What kind of crummy combustion is that? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > A chimney is as good as a fan - especially 3.5 metres. Fan stoves are > > > > supposed to be really clean or you have not done a good job. Shoving > > bad > > > > combustion outside does not solve much. The situation in Ulaanbaatar is > > > > exactly like that. No one has a stove without a chimney. The air > > outside > > is > > > > so polluted that it is contaminating the air drawn into the homes. So > > the > > > > chimney solved nothing - the problem is the stove. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Your grate price is good! I think we should be jealous! It would be so > > nice > > > > to be able to get good parts in cast iron. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks > > > > > > > > Crispin > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > Stoves mailing list > > > > > > > > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address > > > > [email protected] > > > > > > > > to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page > > > > > > > > http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists > > .org > > > > > > > > for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web > > site: > > > > http://www.bioenergylists.org/ > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Message: 10 > > Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2012 11:45:23 +0100 (CET) > > From: "Ronald Hongsermeier" <[email protected]> > > To: "Discussion of biomass cooking stoves" > > <[email protected]> > > Subject: Re: [Stoves] Grates and chimneys > > Message-ID: <1871364040.992806.1328697923103.JavaMail.fmail@mwmweb074> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > > > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > > URL: > > < > > http://lists.bioenergylists.org/pipermail/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org/a > > ttachments/20120208/f62beb81/attachment-0001.html> > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Message: 11 > > Date: Wed, 08 Feb 2012 13:55:42 +0100 > > From: Ronald Hongsermeier <[email protected]> > > To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves > > <[email protected]> > > Subject: Re: [Stoves] Grates and chimneys > > Message-ID: <[email protected]> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; Format="flowed" > > > > Dear Roger and Bridget, > > There's really no reason to be offended. Your video shows a great deal > > of winsomeness and demonstrates a beautiful little stove. I hope you can > > recognize that it's not really priced for the rural Indian market. > > > > A couple of observations occur to me. First, there seems to be some > > confusion about heat transfer in your presentation. I hope that I > > calculate correctly that the maximum heat output is something around > > 8.8kW. The typical electrical stove-top heating field where I live, will > > on one of the cooking positions have a _significantly_ lower heat output > > than your stove; therefore, it is quite appropriate to turn the stove > > way down in order to cook. That, however, this is true, says something > > about this feature. What it says to me, and I may be quite wrong, but > > throw it into the discussion round as a thoroughly neutral observation > > is the following: Excess air conditions, which may be completely > > appropriate for the primary ignition --> steady state phases of a > > fueling/ignition/burning-cycle, explain why the stove top is not so hot > > for cooking when the air intake is set on max. I think it also at least > > _likely_ that under some conditions the max-air setting may also be > > detrimental to the exhaust air quality. My assumption in stating this is > > that it is likely that the incoming excess air is lowering the temps in > > the secondary burn area of the stove thus making for suboptimal > > completion of gas reactions. > > > > Secondly, since it isn't transparent for me what the heat value of your > > fuel actually is, I can't calculate what the heat output of the stove > > into the room is for the time of 6-10 hours at the low setting. I think > > that value would be quite helpful for someone thinking about purchasing > > such a stove for the intended boat, trailer or portable home (yurt or > > whatever) situation. The respective flue temps would also be helpful for > > such a calculation and consideration. > > > > Thanks for the video. > > > > regards, > > ronald von momentansonnigbayern > > > > > > On 08.02.2012 08:37, Fireside Hearth wrote: > > > Dear Xavier, > > > > > > I should be offended, but alas, I will send you a video link > > > instead........yes our stove has a chimney! > > > > > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=vkz6gKLayvc > > > <http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=vkz6gKLayvc> > > > > > > Roger and Bridget Lehet. > > > > > > > From: [email protected] > > > > To: [email protected] > > > > Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2012 23:59:35 +0100 > > > > Subject: [Stoves] Grates and chimneys > > > > > > > > " It is unfortunate that people produce stoves that have chimneys, > > > but are > > > > not actually clean-burning." > > > > Do we actually have chimney stoves that do not clog up after few > > > > months/years? Even the cleanest stoves? Is it a good idea to build > > > chimney > > > > stoves at all? > > > > > > > > "Your grate price is good! I think we should be jealous! It would be so > > > > nice to be able to get good parts in cast iron." > > > > Hell yes, I can make 1 dollar iron grates, but I wish we could make > > > 1 dollar > > > > cast iron grates in Benin. In fact, cast iron is very rare in Benin > > > (West > > > > Africa? Africa?). When Africa will have the industrial production > > > capacities > > > > of Asia, things will change! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > > > > Message: 4 > > > > Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2012 00:14:57 -0500 > > > > From: "Crispin Pemberton-Pigott" <[email protected]> > > > > To: "'Discussion of biomass cooking stoves'" > > > > <[email protected]> > > > > Subject: Re: [Stoves] advice for chimney wood stove for rural Burkina > > > > Faso > > > > Message-ID: <[email protected]> > > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > > > > > > > Dear AD > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Your story is not very unusual. It is unfortunate that people > > > produce stoves > > > > that have chimneys, but are not actually clean-burning. My point is > > that > > > > just because one produces a chimney stove is no excuse not to use that > > > > additional expense to create the draft needed to completely burn the > > > fuel. > > > > Astonishing really. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I wonder if there is too much emphasis on 'clean indoor air' without > > > enough > > > > emphasis on 'not needing to worry about clean indoor air' in the first > > > > place. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That level of deposition is depressing. I heard about a stove being > > > produced > > > > in the tea country high in Kenya which is used for space heating and > > > > cooking, According to the designer the 3 inch chimney would clog > > > after three > > > > months. That is ridiculous! What kind of crummy combustion is that? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > A chimney is as good as a fan - especially 3.5 metres. Fan stoves are > > > > supposed to be really clean or you have not done a good job. Shoving > > bad > > > > combustion outside does not solve much. The situation in Ulaanbaatar is > > > > exactly like that. No one has a stove without a chimney. The air > > > outside is > > > > so polluted that it is contaminating the air drawn into the homes. > > > So the > > > > chimney solved nothing - the problem is the stove. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Your grate price is good! I think we should be jealous! It would be > > > so nice > > > > to be able to get good parts in cast iron. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks > > > > > > > > Crispin > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > Stoves mailing list > > > > > > > > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address > > > > [email protected] > > > > > > > > to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page > > > > > > > > > > > http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists > > .org > > > > > > > > for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site: > > > > http://www.bioenergylists.org/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Stoves mailing list > > > > > > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address > > > [email protected] > > > > > > to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page > > > > > > > http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists > > .org > > > > > > for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site: > > > http://www.bioenergylists.org/ > > > > > > > > > > > > No virus found in this message. > > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com> > > > Version: 10.0.1424 / Virus Database: 2112/4794 - Release Date: 02/07/12 > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- > > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > > URL: > > < > > http://lists.bioenergylists.org/pipermail/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org/a > > ttachments/20120208/6eccff73/attachment-0001.html> > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Message: 12 > > Date: Wed, 08 Feb 2012 09:17:22 -0600 > > From: "Paul S. Anderson" <[email protected]> > > To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves > > <[email protected]>, Otto Formo > > <[email protected]> > > Cc: [email protected] > > Subject: Re: [Stoves] Grates and chimneys > > Message-ID: > > <[email protected]> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; DelSp="Yes"; > > format="flowed" > > > > Dear all, > > > > Stoves simply should not clog their chimneys. > > > > The TLUD gasifier stoves such as what Otto mentioned can have chimneys > > if you want then, and those chimneys remain quite clean. > > Unfortunately we do not yet have TLUDs with chimneys installed > > anywhere long enough to measure how much or how little deposition > > occurs. Factors of fuel types, ambient conditions, diameters, > > heights, etc will need to be included in any final major study. > > > > But my experience with gasifiers shows minimal deposits (light > > dusting, perhaps) in chimneys or passageways of the hot gases. I have > > never cleaned a chimney. > > > > Paul > > -- > > Paul S. Anderson, PhD > > Known to some as: Dr. TLUD Doc Professor > > Phone (USA): 309-452-7072 SKYPE: paultlud Email: [email protected] > > www.gtz.de/de/dokumente/giz2011-en-micro-gasification.pdf (Best ref.) > > > > > > Quoting Otto Formo <[email protected]>: > > > > > Dear Roger and Bridget, > > > Nice piece of work! > > > Even a tray for the ash, most producers of stoves to day seems to > > > "forget" that biomass produce ash. (Gasifiers produce little ash) > > > I just recall, that you where looking for a stove in combination of > > > heating and cooking to fit in a boat or a small cabin. > > > Have you tried to ignite the biomass from the top? > > > By doing so, you will burn out the gases in the biomass, first, and > > > will have a very clean and efficient burn, despite a chimney or not. > > > Most people seems to forget, that dry fuel (less than 10% moisture) > > > and ignition on top of the fuel, is just as important as an > > > "efficient" stove. > > > Have you tried or considered pellets? > > > > > > What is your retail price? > > > I very much agree that such a stove will be very suitable for > > > outdoor activities, as well, like in tipies and small cabins in the > > > high mountains. > > > > > > Have a nice and warm day in Washington. > > > > > > Good luck. > > > > > > Otto > > > A TLUD ND gasifier fan.............without a fan.......:) > > > > > >> From: Fireside Hearth [[email protected]] > > >> Sent: 2012-02-08 08:37:30 MET > > >> To: [email protected] > > >> Subject: Re: [Stoves] Grates and chimneys > > >> > > >> > > >> Dear Xavier, > > >> > > >> I should be offended, but alas, I will send you a video link > > >> instead........yes our stove has a chimney! > > >> > > >> http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=vkz6gKLayvc > > >> > > >> Roger and Bridget Lehet. > > >> > > >> > From: [email protected] > > >> > To: [email protected] > > >> > Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2012 23:59:35 +0100 > > >> > Subject: [Stoves] Grates and chimneys > > >> > > > >> > " It is unfortunate that people produce stoves that have chimneys, but > > are > > >> > not actually clean-burning." > > >> > Do we actually have chimney stoves that do not clog up after few > > >> > months/years? Even the cleanest stoves? Is it a good idea to build > > chimney > > >> > stoves at all? > > >> > > > >> > "Your grate price is good! I think we should be jealous! It would be > > so > > >> > nice to be able to get good parts in cast iron." > > >> > Hell yes, I can make 1 dollar iron grates, but I wish we could > > >> make 1 dollar > > >> > cast iron grates in Benin. In fact, cast iron is very rare in Benin > > (West > > >> > Africa? Africa?). When Africa will have the industrial production > > >> capacities > > >> > of Asia, things will change! > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > -----Original Message----- > > >> > > > >> > Message: 4 > > >> > Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2012 00:14:57 -0500 > > >> > From: "Crispin Pemberton-Pigott" <[email protected]> > > >> > To: "'Discussion of biomass cooking stoves'" > > >> > <[email protected]> > > >> > Subject: Re: [Stoves] advice for chimney wood stove for rural Burkina > > >> > Faso > > >> > Message-ID: <[email protected]> > > >> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > >> > > > >> > Dear AD > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > Your story is not very unusual. It is unfortunate that people > > >> produce stoves > > >> > that have chimneys, but are not actually clean-burning. My point is > > that > > >> > just because one produces a chimney stove is no excuse not to use that > > >> > additional expense to create the draft needed to completely burn the > > fuel. > > >> > Astonishing really. > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > I wonder if there is too much emphasis on 'clean indoor air' > > >> without enough > > >> > emphasis on 'not needing to worry about clean indoor air' in the first > > >> > place. > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > That level of deposition is depressing. I heard about a stove > > >> being produced > > >> > in the tea country high in Kenya which is used for space heating and > > >> > cooking, According to the designer the 3 inch chimney would clog > > >> after three > > >> > months. That is ridiculous! What kind of crummy combustion is that? > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > A chimney is as good as a fan - especially 3.5 metres. Fan stoves are > > >> > supposed to be really clean or you have not done a good job. Shoving > > bad > > >> > combustion outside does not solve much. The situation in Ulaanbaatar > > is > > >> > exactly like that. No one has a stove without a chimney. The air > > >> outside is > > >> > so polluted that it is contaminating the air drawn into the homes. So > > the > > >> > chimney solved nothing - the problem is the stove. > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > Your grate price is good! I think we should be jealous! It would > > >> be so nice > > >> > to be able to get good parts in cast iron. > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > Thanks > > >> > > > >> > Crispin > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > _______________________________________________ > > >> > Stoves mailing list > > >> > > > >> > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address > > >> > [email protected] > > >> > > > >> > to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page > > >> > > > >> > > > > http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists > > .org > > >> > > > >> > for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web > > site: > > >> > http://www.bioenergylists.org/ > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > This message was sent using Illinois State University RedbirdMail > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Stoves mailing list > > > > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address > > [email protected] > > > > to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page > > > > http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists > > .org > > > > > > for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site: > > http://www.bioenergylists.org/ > > > > > > End of Stoves Digest, Vol 18, Issue 9 > > ************************************* > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Stoves mailing list > > > > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address > > [email protected] > > > > to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page > > > > http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org > > > > for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site: > > http://www.bioenergylists.org/ > > > > > > > -- > *** > Dr. A.D. Karve > Trustee & Founder President, Appropriate Rural Technology Institute (ARTI)
_______________________________________________ Stoves mailing list to Send a Message to the list, use the email address [email protected] to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site: http://www.bioenergylists.org/
