Kevin, No: I, am just stalking the truth! Richard Sent from my iPhone
On Aug 7, 2012, at 20:40, "Kevin" <[email protected]> wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Richard Stanley > To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves > Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2012 1:50 PM > Subject: Re: [Stoves] material processing for briquettes few tips ontechnique > > Am all ears > > # Is that a corn pun? ;-) > > Kevin & Andrew. > > Clearly its not hydrated lime but rather directly powdered rock lime we are > seeing. > > # I don't know the technology involved in corn treatment, , but "lime > burning" goes back a long way: > CaCO3 + Heat ---> CaO + CO2 (Lime Burning) > Limestone and heat yield Calcium Oxide and CO2. > > # The CaO can be produced as "Lump Lime", or the "Lump Lime" can be hammer > milled or ground to produce "crushed lime", "ground lime", "powdered lime", > etc. This is very different from limestone, ie, Calcium Carbonate, that is > crushed, ground, milled, etc., which is commonly known as "ground limestone", > agricultural limestone, ag-lime, land lime, etc. > > # If the lime is dropped in water, it hydrates to produce Hydrated Lime: > CaO + H20 ---> Ca(OH)2 (Hydrated Lime Production.) > This is also known as "Slaked Lime", and "Mason's Lime." > > # When dissolved in water, to make "Lime Water", the lime is very reactive, > at high pH. > > # Now, there is a problem here... the highly reactive Ca(OH)2 has a big > affinity for CO2. It can easily remove CO2 from the air, to "air slake", or, > if in a slurry, can remove CO2 from solution. A lump of calcined CaO can "air > slake" to produce "powdered limestone." > CaO + CO2 ---> CaCO3 > > # There can be a two step process involved in "air slaking".... first the CaO > can hydrate to Ca(OH)2, and then it can carbonate to CaCO3: > > How would either variety, Hydrated or not effects the removal of shells off > the corn kernels --as done there in large 50 - 75 liter sized vats of hot > water is my question. > # I don't know the process, but would guess that Hydrated Lime would be > employed, and that ground limestone would not "do the job." I would guess > also that the reactive, high pH hydrated lime would become "spent" in the > process of de-hulling. The "spent lime" may be present as part of an organic > compound of some sort, or, it may also have been precipitated out as CaCO3, > if CO2 was present. > > Best wishes, > > Kevin > > > The efficient management of the partial decomposition of selected > agricultural residues makes or breaks a production activity from an economic > standpoint. In lieu of sophisticated machinery, it often comes down to > finding an efficient and locally managed method to accelerate the breakdown > of the plant material, preserving its fiber content while dissociating it > from the matrix material all left-still -, in a combustible state. > > Its particularly, the loosened flexible ganglia of fibers, recombined in a > water slurry of other plant and granular combustibles, forms the kind of > tight, well infilled and relatively hot briquette that sells well, in the > local market. > > If they don't have the fibers at work they can resort to paper if they have > it but paper is never going to burn like selected natural plant material > which they are familiar with and are best assured to be able to utilise on a > sustainable basis. > > When it comes to practical briquetting based on traditional skills, there is > more collective wisdom in this truck than you can imagine. Its through these > incredible folks, and about 300 more, that the production trainers for the > region will soon emerge. > > > Am very busy learning from both ends of the candle here ! > Your information could not be more timely: > > Thanks again, Kevin and Andrew. > > Richard Stanley > www.legacyfound.org > =========== > > On Aug 7, 2012, at 6:42 AM, Kevin wrote: > > Dear Andrew > > Very interesting possible explanation for why "spent agricultural lime" helps > with the anaerobic retting process! > > While Ca(OH)2, or "Hydrated lime" can have a pH as high as about 12.5, and > is indeed very caustic, CaCO3 or "Limestone", "agriculture lime, "land lime", > has a pH in the range of about 8, which is not very caustic at all > > Is there perhaps another possibility, that being that a marginal change in > alkalinity favours growth of different bacteria? > > More specifically, is it perhaps the minor change in pH is "shifting the bug > balance", rather than making local chemistry harsher? In other words, are the > "retting fungus forms" more favoured with slightly higher pH, while the > fungus forms that consume cellulose are repressed? > > Best wishes, > > Kevin > > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: <[email protected]> > To: "Discussion of biomass cooking stoves" <[email protected]> > Sent: Saturday, August 04, 2012 2:04 PM > Subject: Re: [Stoves] material processing for briquettes few tips ontechnique > > >> On Fri, 3 Aug 2012 10:32:14 -0700, Richard Stanley wrote: >> >>> If processed correctly, natural fibers will flex and then tend to >>> interlock once blended with other materials in a water slurry. >>> One does not achieve this by simple chopping or even direct use of the >>> fiber without some form of softening (thru partial decompsition, in a hot >>> humid anerobic environment, (under such as a black plastic bag), or as we >>> are learning from our Mayan colleagues in Guatemala, use of agricultural >>> lime (which is traditionally discarded after its use in hot water to soften >>> and de-shell their corn kernals). >> >> As always I find your posts on briquetting educational. >> >> Alkalis, lime being calcium hydroxide, dissolve lignin and I expect >> this is what the bugs do in retting fibres out of the stem >> (simplistically wood rotting fungi can be classified into brown, white >> and soft rots, the white rots attack lignin and leave the cellulose, >> brown eat the cellulose and soft rots invade all the cells), it's >> lignin that hold all the stringy fibres together. So I can see how >> lime would separate out the fibres. >> >> Your observation that the bugs work better in anaerobic conditions >> may be that this is what favours a white rot. Flax sheaves where laid >> in a water filled ditch to ret. >> >> I may have missed something in Rok's post: Rok mentions 16cms diameter >> briquettes with a 5 cms hole, I take it it is the length he is varying >> between 3-12 cms and favouring a length of between 5 and 7cms? >> >> AJH >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Stoves mailing list >> >> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address >> [email protected] >> >> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page >> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org >> >> for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site: >> http://www.bioenergylists.org/ > > > _______________________________________________ > Stoves mailing list > > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address > [email protected] > > to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page > http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org > > for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site: > http://www.bioenergylists.org/ > > > Am all ears Kevin & Andrew. > > Clearly its not hydrated lime but rather directly powdered rock lime we are > seeing. > > How would either variety, Hydrated or not effects the removal of shells off > the corn kernels --as done there in large 50 - 75 liter sized vats of hot > water is my question. > > > > The efficient management of the partial decomposition of selected > agricultural residues makes or breaks a production activity from an economic > standpoint. In lieu of sophisticated machinery, it often comes down to > finding an efficient and locally managed method to accelerate the breakdown > of the plant material, preserving its fiber content while dissociating it > from the matrix material all left-still -, in a combustible state. > > Its particularly, the loosened flexible ganglia of fibers, recombined in a > water slurry of other plant and granular combustibles, forms the kind of > tight, well infilled and relatively hot briquette that sells well, in the > local market. > > If they don't have the fibers at work they can resort to paper if they have > it but paper is never going to burn like selected natural plant material > which they are familiar with and are best assured to be able to utilise on a > sustainable basis. > > When it comes to practical briquetting based on traditional skills, there is > more collective wisdom in this truck than you can imagine. Its through these > incredible folks, and about 300 more, that the production trainers for the > region will soon emerge. > > > > Am very busy learning from both ends of the candle here ! > Your information could not be more timely: > > Thanks again, Kevin and Andrew. > > Richard Stanley > www.legacyfound.org > =========== > > On Aug 7, 2012, at 6:42 AM, Kevin wrote: > > Dear Andrew > > Very interesting possible explanation for why "spent agricultural lime" helps > with the anaerobic retting process! > > While Ca(OH)2, or "Hydrated lime" can have a pH as high as about 12.5, and > is indeed very caustic, CaCO3 or "Limestone", "agriculture lime, "land lime", > has a pH in the range of about 8, which is not very caustic at all > > Is there perhaps another possibility, that being that a marginal change in > alkalinity favours growth of different bacteria? > > More specifically, is it perhaps the minor change in pH is "shifting the bug > balance", rather than making local chemistry harsher? In other words, are the > "retting fungus forms" more favoured with slightly higher pH, while the > fungus forms that consume cellulose are repressed? > > Best wishes, > > Kevin > > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: <[email protected]> > To: "Discussion of biomass cooking stoves" <[email protected]> > Sent: Saturday, August 04, 2012 2:04 PM > Subject: Re: [Stoves] material processing for briquettes few tips ontechnique > > > > On Fri, 3 Aug 2012 10:32:14 -0700, Richard Stanley wrote: > > > >> If processed correctly, natural fibers will flex and then tend to > >> interlock once blended with other materials in a water slurry. > >> One does not achieve this by simple chopping or even direct use of the > >> fiber without some form of softening (thru partial decompsition, in a hot > >> humid anerobic environment, (under such as a black plastic bag), or as we > >> are learning from our Mayan colleagues in Guatemala, use of agricultural > >> lime (which is traditionally discarded after its use in hot water to > >> soften and de-shell their corn kernals). > > > > As always I find your posts on briquetting educational. > > > > Alkalis, lime being calcium hydroxide, dissolve lignin and I expect > > this is what the bugs do in retting fibres out of the stem > > (simplistically wood rotting fungi can be classified into brown, white > > and soft rots, the white rots attack lignin and leave the cellulose, > > brown eat the cellulose and soft rots invade all the cells), it's > > lignin that hold all the stringy fibres together. So I can see how > > lime would separate out the fibres. > > > > Your observation that the bugs work better in anaerobic conditions > > may be that this is what favours a white rot. Flax sheaves where laid > > in a water filled ditch to ret. > > > > I may have missed something in Rok's post: Rok mentions 16cms diameter > > briquettes with a 5 cms hole, I take it it is the length he is varying > > between 3-12 cms and favouring a length of between 5 and 7cms? > > > > AJH > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Stoves mailing list > > > > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address > > [email protected] > > > > to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page > > http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org > > > > for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site: > > http://www.bioenergylists.org/ > > > _______________________________________________ > Stoves mailing list > > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address > [email protected] > > to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page > http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org > > for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site: > http://www.bioenergylists.org/ > > > _______________________________________________ > Stoves mailing list > > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address > [email protected] > > to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page > http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org > > for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site: > http://www.bioenergylists.org/ > > _______________________________________________ > Stoves mailing list > > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address > [email protected] > > to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page > http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org > > for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site: > http://www.bioenergylists.org/ >
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