Dear stovers please ignore all negative comments as to intent and possible profit gains from your work althoug I get verry little time for my own work on stoves it is one of the highlits of my day to read about your work in this regard. Selmar Sent from my BlackBerry® wireless device
-----Original Message----- From: [email protected] Sender: "Stoves" <[email protected]> Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2012 09:38:34 To: <[email protected]> Reply-To: [email protected] Subject: Stoves Digest, Vol 27, Issue 14 Send Stoves mailing list submissions to [email protected] To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to [email protected] You can reach the person managing the list at [email protected] When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Stoves digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Re: Fwd: Smoke-free biomass pellet fueled stove (Kevin) 2. Re: The end user (Paul Anderson) 3. Re: Fwd: Smoke-free biomass pellet fueled stove (Crispin Pemberton-Pigott) 4. Re: Fwd: Smoke-free biomass pellet fueled stove (Ronald Hongsermeier) 5. Re: The end user (Frank Shields) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2012 12:17:30 -0400 From: "Kevin" <[email protected]> To: "Discussion of biomass cooking stoves" <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [Stoves] Fwd: Smoke-free biomass pellet fueled stove Message-ID: <9650FF6112FF4302BB87A6797EBC0004@usera594fda0bf> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Dear Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: Tom Miles To: 'Discussion of biomass cooking stoves' Sent: Tuesday, November 06, 2012 11:28 AM Subject: Re: [Stoves] Fwd: Smoke-free biomass pellet fueled stove Kevin, It is a stretch and an insult to everyone on the stoves list to suggest that they are practicing ?classic imperialism? or ?technology capitalism.? # Such a characterisation may very well be insulting to those who attempt to take improved technology from those who developed it for those who need it, but I would suggest that it is far from an insult to the many very generous people on this list who trulg aim to help those in need. Are their people in the stoves community who take advantage of others? Unfortunately there are but they don?t necessarily fit your labels. # The formula that seems to work is to bring technology to those in need, so that they can then help themselves. Seeking free access and removal of intellectual rights to improved technology already in the hands of those in need would seem to be the reverse of the formula that seems to work. Now if I were to characterize you with your musing as an otherwise intelligent old man who exploits this list just for his own entertainment, and no productive purpose, then I would call that ?intellectual imperialism? because at those times you dominate the list and rob us of valuable intellectual resources that should be used to help those in need. # I apologize to you and to any List Members, where my views come across in this selfish and obnoxious manner. My intent is to be supportive of the purpose to which your stove site, http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/ , is dedicated: " Our site is dedicated to helping people develop better stoves for cooking with biomass fuels in developing regions." Kevin Tom From: Stoves [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Kevin Sent: Tuesday, November 06, 2012 5:07 AM To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves Subject: Re: [Stoves] Fwd: Smoke-free biomass pellet fueled stove Dear Ronald I was struck by the apparent parallel between "Classic Old Time Imperialism" in the Physical world, and "Technology Capitalism" in the "Stoves World." Examples of the "Classic Old Time Capitalism" would be of the Romans who conquered Countries for their Resources, and the Spaniards conquered the Mayans and Incas for their Gold, as compared to "Technology Capitalism", where a Member or Members of the "Stoves List World" seek to take New Technology, "The Gold of the Stoves World" from "lesser powers." Imperialism is defined at http://encyclopedia2.thefreedictionary.com/imperialism Classic Imperialism usually involved exploitation of a smaller or weaker Country or people by a more powerful Government or Country, where "the Imperialist" takes labour and tangible resources from the Country or people it dominates. The parallel with "Classic Imperialism" is perhaps weak, in that neither Governments nor tangible resources are involved, but rather, Individuals and abstract Technology. Perhaps my parallel was "too big a stretch." What do you think? Best wishes, Kevin ----- Original Message ----- From: Ronald Hongsermeier To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves Sent: Tuesday, November 06, 2012 6:19 AM Subject: Re: [Stoves] Fwd: Smoke-free biomass pellet fueled stove Dear Kevin, Please define "Imperialism" since it's not clear from the context what you mean. Thanks, Ronald von der Neuenkleinindustrieparkanlage On 06.11.2012 05:37, Kevin wrote: Dear Anil Sadly, it looks like Imperialism is still alive and well. Best wishes, Kevin ----- Original Message ----- From: nari phaltan To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves Sent: Tuesday, November 06, 2012 12:09 AM Subject: Re: [Stoves] Fwd: Smoke-free biomass pellet fueled stove Dear Prof Nurhuda, It is a very impressive development and you are right in expecting a suitable rate of return on your intellectual property. Such requests for waiving rights have also been received by us for our ethanol stove work before from some members of the group. All the best. Anil K Rajvanshi On Tue, Nov 6, 2012 at 4:38 PM, <[email protected]> wrote: Dear Prof. Anderson, The equipments used to produce the stove are actually the standard equipments used in the kerosene stove production. They are hydraulic press, welding equipment, roller, and still many other equipments. The number of personals are 30 persons, but those are involved in the production, due to still lower demand, is only 6-10 persons. The maximum production capacity, at moment, around 500 units in week. But we can increase up to 1000 units in week. It depends on the difficulty level, the stove dimension and still many other things. The expenses used in the development of new stoves are mostly for research and purchasing or build new equipments. We have spent more tens thousands US$ from our start in the mid 2008. I therefore disagree to any proposal to intelectual right removal, as you ever wrote about it to me two years ago. Kind regards M. Nurhuda Regards M. Nurhuda > Dear M. Nurhuda, > > Thank you for the info. > > Many of us are curious about your workshop to produce such nice items. > Questions include the equipment, personnel, and production capacity. > > With appreciation, > > Paul > > Paul S. Anderson, PhD aka "Dr TLUD" > Email: [email protected] Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072 > Website: www.drtlud.com > > On 11/5/2012 1:13 AM, Ron Larson wrote: >> >> Lists: >> >> Prof. Nurhuda has ok'd my forwarding this additional information on >> his recently announced stove. >> >> Ron >> >> >> Begin forwarded message: >> >>> *From:* Muhammad Nurhuda <[email protected] >>> <mailto:[email protected]>> >>> *Date:* November 4, 2012 5:01:46 PM MST >>> *To:* [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >>> *Subject:* *Re: [Stoves] Smoke-free biomass pellet fueled stove* >>> >>> Dear Mr Larson, >>> >>> Thank a lot for your email. The stove is my recent attempt in order >>> biomass pellet can be well burnt. Previously, I developed stove fueled >>> wit >>> palm kernel shell. Even the stove was excellent for palm kernel shell, >>> but >>> it is not immediately good for biomass pellet. There are a lot of >>> things >>> that have to be optimized. >>> >>> Yes, the excess air can be seen from the appearance of the flame. >>> Optimal >>> secondary air would produce very transparent,short flame, though it >>> must >>> not be blue...... Mr Crispin Pemberton Pigott has witnessed the stove >>> as I demonstrated it in Yayasan Dian Desa, last October. >>> >>> I just started to sell this pellet stoves. At the moment, I got >>> purchasing >>> order of 1200 stoves. It occurs after the buyer perform test by >>> himself. >>> However, due to limited capacity of our workshop, the buyer must wait >>> up >>> to 3 months right now. At the moment, we are manufacturing 1600 >>> chopped-wood fueled stoves for project in Sumba Island, Indonesia. >>> >>> The percentage of charcoal by weight is 20-25%. Some time it is less. >>> But >>> certainly, our stove burns the smoke very well until the last smoke >>> production. >>> >>> Biochar is char that contains volatile matter (VM) less then 3%. When >>> the >>> VM is still high, let say 5%, the reaction of VM and water can lead the >>> acidic soil condition, and it is not good for the plant. We believe >>> that >>> the biochar produced by combustion of our stove is VM-free, such that >>> it >>> is good for soil conditioner. >>> >>> As you might know, my background is a theoretical atomic and laser >>> physicist. I do not know some specific terms like turn-down ratio. I >>> started to develop stoves in the late 2008. In addition, I do not have >>> laboratory, just small workshop that produces the stoves. So far, the >>> performance tests are performed by external laboratories. In 2010 test >>> performed by PT Puser Bumi in cooperation with directory of bioenergy, >>> republic of Indonesia, our wood chopped stoves was the best among other >>> 60 >>> stoves. >>> >>> Kind regards >>> M. Nurhuda >>> >>> > Prof. Nurhuda >>> > This is a really fine looking stove. The part that intrigues me most >>> is >>> that you are controlling secondary air for the pyrolysis gases. And >>> apparently doing it (and primary air) well with the rotating disc >>> mechanism. I do not recall seeing any other stove controlling both >>> (without a fan) - so any data on the value of that for users of the >>> stove >>> > could be very helpful to others. (Can they control excess air by the >>> look >>> > of the flame?) >>> > A few questions: >>> > the price? >>> > sales going well? >>> > what percentage char by weight? >>> > any soil improvement results from using the biochar? >>> > can you do more than a 4:3 turndown ratio? (based on your two stated >>> power >>> > levels) >>> > apparently you are striving for biochar (great!), but can you >>> describe >>> conditions if you try to burn the produced char? >>> > any efficiency data? >>> > you appear to be pre-heating both primary and secondary air - can you >>> attribute any performance improvement to that? (I know of no-one else >>> doing both) >>> > Thanks for the alert on your stove. >>> > Ron >>> > ----- Original Message ----- >>> > From:[email protected] >>> <http://webmail.ub.ac.id/src/compose.php?send_to=mnurhuda%40ub.ac.id> >>> > To:[email protected] >>> <http://webmail.ub.ac.id/src/compose.php?send_to=stoves%40lists.bioenergylists.org> >>> > Sent: Saturday, November 3, 2012 5:03:54 PM >>> > Subject: [Stoves] Smoke-free biomass pellet fueled stove >>> > Dear all, >>> > Please check to following page to see the video of our smoke-free, >>> biomass-pellet fueled stove: >>> >http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uWt25oD1iWk&feature=youtu.be >>> > Kind regards >>> > M. Nurhuda >>> > _______________________________________________ >>> > Stoves mailing list >>> > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address >>> >[email protected] >>> <http://webmail.ub.ac.id/src/compose.php?send_to=stoves%40lists.bioenergylists.org> >>> > to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page >>> >http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org >>> for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site: >>> http://www.bioenergylists.org/ >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Stoves mailing list >> >> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address >> [email protected] >> >> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page >> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org >> >> for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site: >> http://www.bioenergylists.org/ >> > > _______________________________________________ > Stoves mailing list > > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address > [email protected] > > to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page > http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org > > for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site: > http://www.bioenergylists.org/ > > _______________________________________________ Stoves mailing list to Send a Message to the list, use the email address [email protected] to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site: http://www.bioenergylists.org/ -- Nimbkar Agricultural Research Institute (NARI) Tambmal, Phaltan-Lonand Road P.O.Box 44 Phaltan-415523, Maharashtra, India Ph:91-2166-222396/220945 e-mail:[email protected] [email protected] http://www.nariphaltan.org ------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ Stoves mailing list to Send a Message to the list, use the email address [email protected] to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site: http://www.bioenergylists.org/ _______________________________________________Stoves mailing list to Send a Message to the list, use the email [email protected] to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web pagehttp://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:http://www.bioenergylists.org/ No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1427 / Virus Database: 2441/5376 - Release Date: 11/05/12 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ Stoves mailing list to Send a Message to the list, use the email address [email protected] to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site: http://www.bioenergylists.org/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ Stoves mailing list to Send a Message to the list, use the email address [email protected] to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site: http://www.bioenergylists.org/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://lists.bioenergylists.org/pipermail/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org/attachments/20121106/d49c646a/attachment-0001.html> ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2012 10:20:59 -0600 From: Paul Anderson <[email protected]> To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [Stoves] The end user Message-ID: <[email protected]> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; Format="flowed" Dear Paal and all, While I agree with Paal, I point out one important additional element. The need to have good stoves available for the end users. The GACC is involved in many aspects of stoves, but one in particular is the stimulation of the supply of the stoves. Stoves PLURAL and of numerous types. Which stoves, and where, and by whom are part of the basics that GACC is facilitating while not doing nor dictating. Not an easy task. So, linking Paal's comments and the GACC, should and can more attention to the end users be given by the GACC? And if so, then how, when, etc. Paul Paul S. Anderson, PhD aka "Dr TLUD" Email: [email protected] Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072 Website: www.drtlud.com 11/6/2012 3:31 AM, Paal Wendelbo wrote: > > Dear Stovers and GACC > > The discussion on the list must be crucial for GACC, though the end > user for the program naturally dos not participate in the > discussion.The academic part of the discussion is really informative > and important for us stove designers but probably not that much for > the end user. I feel there is too much focus on stoves on the list and > to little focus on the end user, the cook and the fuel. What are the > priorities of the end user? > > 1.Price of stoves > > 2.Price of fuel > > 3.Economy > > 4.Jobs > > 5.Waste as fuel > > 6.Soot, tar on the pot and smoke > > 7.Practical use of stoves and fuel > > 8.Design. > > 9.Boiling beans. > > 10.Minutes to boil 5 liter of water and MJ > > 11.Health > > 12.Environment > > 13.Biochar > > It could be useful for all of us and especially for GACC, which has a > unique possibility with this program to really change the household > energy and health situation for the low income population in the world > and in addition open for utilization of combustible waste and income > generating activities. > > Regards Paal W [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > > > > _______________________________________________ > Stoves mailing list > > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address > [email protected] > > to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page > http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org > > for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site: > http://www.bioenergylists.org/ > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://lists.bioenergylists.org/pipermail/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org/attachments/20121106/47c0ab44/attachment-0001.html> ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2012 16:52:57 +0000 From: "Crispin Pemberton-Pigott" <[email protected]> To: "Stoves" <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [Stoves] Fwd: Smoke-free biomass pellet fueled stove Message-ID: <1872706393-1352220774-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1341206571-@b13.c10.bise6.blackberry> Content-Type: text/plain Dear Ron and Tom and All I was asked by a permanently employed person as recently as this week to donate the IP for a stove to help the poor. It costs between $20,000 and $1m to develop a novel stove and bring it to the end of the assembly line - to say nothing about getting it into the market. Paal, how long, in hours, did you spend perfecting the Peko Pe? I am always happy and impressed that so many people volunteer their time even if they have no stable income, just to make the world a better place. Sometimes it is to get one's ideas out there and 'helping' sometimes it is part of a larger marketing exercise. What I favour (and have done it) is to pay to someone a small fee of my own devising if I use an invention I consider significant and helpful even if the person doesn't ask for it and doesn't need it. Think of this as inverting the typical theft of intellectual property: paying something for every helpful idea because it is the right thing to do! Instead of looking to get something valuable for free and assisting others, how about it being the new normal to thank the inventor even if they didn't want it? They can divert the income to a worthy cause if they wish. The morality of this is evident: the beneficiary is just as obligated to the inventor as the intermediary. It is not true at all that 'poor people' should not be a normal part of a functioning society. Playing it that way is to diminish their full social status and damage their self-image, however subtle the effect. We should thank and reward our 'teachers'. Even if it is a meal of appreciation fed to non-needy but capable inventor discharges the intellectual property. Regards Crispin ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2012 18:19:44 +0100 From: Ronald Hongsermeier <[email protected]> To: [email protected], Discussion of biomass cooking stoves <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [Stoves] Fwd: Smoke-free biomass pellet fueled stove Message-ID: <[email protected]> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Dear Crispin, Thank you! I'm reminded of Jesus' commendation of the widow's mite here-- and his very straightforward statement that we would always have the poor with us. Trying for balance in honoring Him and serving _all_ my neighbors. regards, Ronald von Humbledhausen On 06.11.2012 17:52, Crispin Pemberton-Pigott wrote: > Dear Ron and Tom and All > > I was asked by a permanently employed person as recently as this week to > donate the IP for a stove to help the poor. It costs between $20,000 and $1m > to develop a novel stove and bring it to the end of the assembly line - to > say nothing about getting it into the market. > > Paal, how long, in hours, did you spend perfecting the Peko Pe? I am always > happy and impressed that so many people volunteer their time even if they > have no stable income, just to make the world a better place. Sometimes it is > to get one's ideas out there and 'helping' sometimes it is part of a larger > marketing exercise. > > What I favour (and have done it) is to pay to someone a small fee of my own > devising if I use an invention I consider significant and helpful even if the > person doesn't ask for it and doesn't need it. > > Think of this as inverting the typical theft of intellectual property: paying > something for every helpful idea because it is the right thing to do! > Instead of looking to get something valuable for free and assisting others, > how about it being the new normal to thank the inventor even if they didn't > want it? They can divert the income to a worthy cause if they wish. > > The morality of this is evident: the beneficiary is just as obligated to the > inventor as the intermediary. It is not true at all that 'poor people' should > not be a normal part of a functioning society. Playing it that way is to > diminish their full social status and damage their self-image, however subtle > the effect. > > We should thank and reward our 'teachers'. Even if it is a meal of > appreciation fed to non-needy but capable inventor discharges the > intellectual property. > > Regards > Crispin > _______________________________________________ > Stoves mailing list > > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address > [email protected] > > to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page > http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org > > for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site: > http://www.bioenergylists.org/ > > > > ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 10.0.1427 / Virus Database: 2441/5376 - Release Date: 11/05/12 > > ------------------------------ Message: 5 Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2012 09:38:55 -0800 From: "Frank Shields" <[email protected]> To: "'Discussion of biomass cooking stoves'" <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [Stoves] The end user Message-ID: <[email protected]> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Dear Stovers, Perhaps I haven't thought about all the working of getting stoves to the masses but it seems to me they are all -purchased- for distribution from NGO's and the like. My thinking is that there need be a catalog of 'approved' stoves. Stoves grouped as to fuel type, stove type, in or outdoor, passed efficiency tests etc. Then anyone can design and build a mockup, have it tested and grouped (at their expense) and if all goes well have it in the catalog to be possibly chosen. Then a small part of the cost per stove (production, distribution, on site research etc.) goes to the designer. There is no short of market (so many people need stoves) there must be a better way to make this work than designing a stove from tin cans then running all over the World to sell it like Paul and Dean are dong. We need to define the methods to test stoves to give then the Groups they belong in etc. It's the Wild West out there! Frank Frank Shields Control Laboratories, Inc. 42 Hangar Way Watsonville, CA 95076 (831) 724-5422 tel (831) 724-3188 fax <http://www.biocharlab> www.biocharlab.com From: Stoves [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Paul Anderson Sent: Tuesday, November 06, 2012 8:21 AM To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves Subject: Re: [Stoves] The end user Dear Paal and all, While I agree with Paal, I point out one important additional element. The need to have good stoves available for the end users. The GACC is involved in many aspects of stoves, but one in particular is the stimulation of the supply of the stoves. Stoves PLURAL and of numerous types. Which stoves, and where, and by whom are part of the basics that GACC is facilitating while not doing nor dictating. Not an easy task. So, linking Paal's comments and the GACC, should and can more attention to the end users be given by the GACC? And if so, then how, when, etc. Paul Paul S. Anderson, PhD aka "Dr TLUD" Email: [email protected] Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072 Website: www.drtlud.com 11/6/2012 3:31 AM, Paal Wendelbo wrote: Dear Stovers and GACC The discussion on the list must be crucial for GACC, though the end user for the program naturally dos not participate in the discussion. The academic part of the discussion is really informative and important for us stove designers but probably not that much for the end user. I feel there is too much focus on stoves on the list and to little focus on the end user, the cook and the fuel. What are the priorities of the end user? 1. Price of stoves 2. Price of fuel 3. Economy 4. Jobs 5. Waste as fuel 6. Soot, tar on the pot and smoke 7. Practical use of stoves and fuel 8. Design. 9. Boiling beans. 10. Minutes to boil 5 liter of water and MJ 11. Health 12. Environment 13. Biochar It could be useful for all of us and especially for GACC, which has a unique possibility with this program to really change the household energy and health situation for the low income population in the world and in addition open for utilization of combustible waste and income generating activities. Regards Paal W [email protected] _______________________________________________ Stoves mailing list to Send a Message to the list, use the email address [email protected] to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists .org for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site: http://www.bioenergylists.org/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://lists.bioenergylists.org/pipermail/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org/attachments/20121106/af0b7a43/attachment.html> ------------------------------ Subject: Digest Footer _______________________________________________ Stoves mailing list to Send a Message to the list, use the email address [email protected] to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site: http://www.bioenergylists.org/ ------------------------------ End of Stoves Digest, Vol 27, Issue 14 ************************************** _______________________________________________ Stoves mailing list to Send a Message to the list, use the email address [email protected] to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site: http://www.bioenergylists.org/
