Crispin,Thanks for your quick reply. Like allways, you have an answer to everything and enjoy your stay in the dense forest of Java or Canada.Replacing trees is not a new idea on the planet, only linked to Canada.In the jungle the forest are dense, but not so heavily populated, that I know of.If you are still using charcoal for cooking (not grilling) in Canda, I wish you good luck. Pellet have been on the marked in Sweden for almost three decades. I was mainly commenting Paul M, but anyway you are of the same part and parcel. I am not here to entertain you and your fellow followers, but here to pinpoint that there are other options than charcoal.There is no need of reporting, what we allready know. We are not forcing matters on anybody, just trying to give them an option, linked to stoves and FUEL. If I should check all your previous posts, I would be busy into the next century and I have better ways to spend my time. We dont need to be told obvious facts, again and again, when we know of the mountains of vaste materials through out the planet.The most important issue is to find ways to utilize it in a smart an rational way. To keep on pushing the old fashion metodes dont direct us in the right direction, as far as I know.People tend to stick to old and "secure" metodes, known for decades, but does it create inventions and progress? Have you ever tested a ND gasifier and the heat transfer to the pot?To boil water in Norway, we need only 100 C at sea level, less at higher altitudes.We do not need tempertures at the melting point of the pot.The gasifier produces heat around 550 - 750C to the pot stand, depending on which type of biomass used. I do not consider a charcoal producer, as you say, "a good or bad guy".i have met several of them during my time as a forest officer in Zambia. They are hard working people, struggeling to feed their families with some "cash crop" from the forest, "free of charge".They do not do it because they, "like it", but because it is the only option they have for some income. Either way, they normaly get 150 kg of charcoal out of 1 tonne of wood.Thats the fact of to day in Zambia and many other African countries. This should also be reflected in your calculation on MJ/kg.Most of the energy content to produce the charcoal on the truck has been consumed in the forest and into the thin air, dont you see?I consider that vaste of energy, so your calculation is bit more complex than you seems to know. The prices are very much linked to the marked and you cant compare firewood and charcoal, as woodchips and charcoal, because of the fact that woochips will last longer and be more fuel efficient in a gasifier, than a treestone fire or an improved woodstove.On the other hand we do not need to use wooden biomass in a gasifier.You cant compare apples and oranges, either by taste or price. They are fruits, yes, but still totally different. Why do you think Phiilps have started producing gasifiers in Maseru?Do you feel they are stupied or commented? Everbody on this list know about the energy chain of charcoal, I belive, and do not need to be highlighted every now and then. To use residues from platations, like in Rwanda, to produce charcoal is of course a better option than using indigionus forest.But if you dont forsee an unefficient and harmfull industry, before it is to late, you are in trouble". Enjoy the dense forest of Java, whilest you can.I have heard stories about heavy logging to create palmoil platations and utilize the char as biochar. Trees are renewable, IF you LEAVE them for a while, that is the big question and bushfires will come and go wheter we like it or not. Otto
From: [email protected] To: [email protected] Date: Sat, 13 Apr 2013 19:54:30 +0700 Subject: Re: [] More on the Alternatives to Charcoal. Dear Otto Well it can truly be said that your posts are entertaining. Let me (once again) set you straight about some things you say I am saying by point out what I am not saying and what I do say. I think it matters if you wont to hold a conversation. >I am on the other hand, very sad to see the scepticism and disbelive in people to be able and willing to change in developing countries. I have no such skepticism. I am reporting what people do. You are welcome to help them change. If the change you bring is not wanted, they will not popularise it. >Your arguments are very much based on that "people never change” or are to ignorant to even consider doing that. I made no such argument at all. I want you (I am asking for the how-many-eth time?) to consider the whole equation. I am not pre-judging the answer, I am with Paul M looking at all facets of a calculation I have made for you in the past. You are welcome to check the old posts. The equation does not change if it is all-inclusive. >…They should be given an option to be part of the value chain from raw materials out of agri- and forest residues to production of woodchips, pellets and briquettes, just like in the charcoal “industry”. I completely agree with this idea. If we do not consider the economic impact of decisions about technology there are many unintended consequences. Charcoal is definitely an industry, and it is a biofuel industry. It is a well-developed industry with a clear value chain. >2. We are not talking about raw wood and wood, only, but residues. which normally are wasted on the fields and inthe forests. There is a great deal of waste from agriculture and forestry. About ½ the mass of a tree is left on the forest floor after cutting – according to South African data on managed forest plantation. >Charcoal is lighter by weight, but consuming in volume. Yes it is less dense but people pile the trucks up very high until they are overloaded. Changing to moving wood will not move more tons in the same number of trucks, if that is what you were getting at. The same number of overloaded tons would be moved with a much lower heat content. They do not dry the wood in rural areas. Not for long anyway, but they could. That is part of the equation. >But dont forget that in a ND gasifier, or as we like to call it, a Micro Kiln, you will utilize the gases in the biomass for cooking and your calculation on MJ/kg will fall apart. When we look at the calculation of the MJ delivered into the pots, we will see the result. I am not speculating, I am calculating. We can calculate for the present conditions. We can calculate from improved charcoal production technology, utilisation of charcoal fines, utilisation of small branches presently wasted, utilisation of agriwastes for charcoal and the use of slash (the branches and thinning from plantations). We can also remember that after a forest fire most of the partly burned tree wood that cannot be sawn and sold is made into charcoal. >Traditional charcoal making, looses more than 50-70% of the energy content in the biomass during production. Yes, let us suppose it is 50% to be generous to the charmaker think of him as a ‘good guy’ for a change. He does a good job and produces 50% of the original energy in the form of char. Now let us put a quantity of wood onto a truck and a quantity of charcoal of the same mass onto another truck. Who is carrying more energy? The charcoal truck of course. How much? About double. That means the energy cost of getting the fuel to the customer is twice as much. When selling wood from trees as fuelwood, will it only be the parts of the tree that are ‘nice to use’ of all of it? I think only the bits that will sell. Large pieces can be split but that is a lot of work. I am pointing out that not all the wood from a tree makes saleable firewood, just like not all the charcoal that gets made gets sold. Of the price, the transport is often 50% or more of the cost to the consumer. Because the cost of moving wood (per MJ) is twice that of charcoal, the landed cost of wood, even if it cost ½ as much to begin with, is now equal to that of charcoal. The wood chopper chopped the tree, dried it a bit, got ½ as much money for it per MJ (assuming he is willing to do that) and because of transport, the cost per useful MJ in the city is the same as charcoal. So we have two fuels with different prices per kg but the same price per MJ of useable heat. No, put the fuel into a stove. The charcoal stove is going to be 25-40% efficient. Here we have 50% efficient ones but I am being generous. Not everyone has good $3 stoves. If the wood stove is not as energy efficient (calculated on the raw fuel consumed), it costs more to run. Simple as that. Checking prices for wood in Maputo these numbers hold up. Wood is over-priced per MJ and people avoid it. >How can you argue that charcoal is a better option, when you bring the raw materials, sundried, to the consumer and they are actually making and burning their own char, while cooking? I am not arguing for charcoal, I am reporting the energy train that exists and the costs and what people do. I do not do it, they do. >Traditional charcoal making is also produced from indigenous trees and bring a heavy tall to the forest in protected areas. In some cases it is, in other, not so. Rwanda has been an interesting case study for transforming this. Virtually all the charcoal sold in Rwanda comes from woodlots on private land, and there is a lot of it sold. You can ask Robert van der Plas about it. >In the Northern Hemisphere, we do NOT turn the firewood into charcoal, unless we like to bring up high temperatures and melt down iron for steel production, like in the old days, when I was young………:) Charcoal is widely sold as a cooking fuel in Canada. >Dont be so arrogant and pretend that people in developing countries are ignorant and dont SEE, when given an option, pls. I have just demonstrated above that people are very wise about their decisions regarding fuels and prices and pots and convenience. Perhaps you could consider why they prefer to purchase charcoal. Just because an industry is not as efficient as it could be does not mean you shut down the industry. >3. The Natural Draft - ND gasifiers, are lit form the top, yes, and that is the whole key to pyrolysis and production of char-coal in an efficient and proper manner. The ND gasifiers currently available have several shortcomings and if they did not, I believe they would be a lot more popular. >The Forced Draft (gasifiers driven by fan), operates a bit differently and consume the char. Natural draft gasifiers are quite capable of burning the char. It is important not to limit the discussion to certain stoves that cannot. Alexis makes fan gasifiers that make charcoal and do not burn it. Both are possible and both are available. >4. I cannot see the difference between hauling charcoal, pellets, briquettes or woodchips, pls highlight me. I have covered that. Cost per ton is fixed. Energy per ton is not. Each fuel type is different. >There is “no” need to develop any new low prized technology, Its already there.Even bicykles and wheel borrows can ferry pellets, briquettes and woodchips, not in the same number of bags as charcoal, but very much the same quantity in terms of MJ/kg. What is the MJ/kg in the different fuels? Wood at 16% moisture is about 15.5 MJ/kg. Charcoal at 2% is about 29.3 MJ. Chips are wood. Agricultural waste is about 12-14 MJ. Pelleted agri-wastes are about 16. >5. Do you know how much work and efforts in terms of manpower, it takes to produce a bag of charcoal? Do you know how much to produce an equal amount of energy in the form of chopped and split and dried wood? Pellets? Chips? >…The technology is not NEW and very much improved over the years The Chinese are producing a lot and have plans to produce more in the next years but it has to be subsidised because of production and distributions costs. The machinery suffers a lot. >For how long can it be possible to chew on the same biscuit?Isnt it high time to test a different brand or content? Ask people to try. We promote anything that works that people are willing to buy. I am of course not involved in the fuel supply chains, I just watch and measure. >For how long can we accept to see people cutting the branch, they are both literally and actually sitting on? For as long as trees grow. Trees are renewable (if you leave them alone for a while). Western Canada has billions of them planted after forests are cut. Thanks for pitching some interesting points. RegardsCrispin in Central Java where they are drowning in biomass and burn it to get rid of it. _______________________________________________ Stoves mailing list to Send a Message to the list, use the email address [email protected] to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site: http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/
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