Dear Kevin,
isn't a billion 10^9 ? and billion billion therefore 10^18?
the factors include water's ability to chemically shunt organic and
inorganic contained and bottom materials within the pH system, which
means we'd have to be able to at least model the composition of an
average ocean bottom re. minerals, overall ocean avg. temp, surface to
bottom migration, etc.
I am an ecologically sympathetic person, but see more danger presently
from legal, semi-legal and illegal fishing practice to the overall
health of the oceans.
I am also sympathetic with the concerns of Cecil Cook re. poisons, but
think it somewhat confusing to put CO2 in the same class as CCl4.
Depending on the amount of time between the cleaning process and the
dipped sleeve there could well have been quite a significant amount of
Carbon Tet in the water, especially in view of the proportions of
scale-- I well remember being able to tell when I walked through the
door of our house if my mother had brought things home from the cleaners
and the odor was remarkable for some time after removing the plastic or
paper wrappers of the day. And no, we don't know everything, which
should make us more cautious not only in our actions, but also in
concretizing our fears.
regards,
Ron von Bayernmittelwochenwochenende
On 08.08.2013 13:41, Kevin wrote:
Dear Paul
Crispin indicates that the mass of the ocean is about 1.33 billion
billion tons, i.e., 1.33 x 10^12 tons. That is a lot of water.
The oceans are now alkaline. Some CO2 additions will lower the pH of
the ocean, but the oceans will still be alkaline.
How much CO2 would be required to actually make the oceans acidic?
At current rates of anthropogenic CO2 production, how long would it
take for the Oceans to actually become acidic?
Thanks!
Kevin
----- Original Message -----
*From:* Paul Olivier <mailto:[email protected]>
*To:* Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
<mailto:[email protected]>
*Sent:* Thursday, August 08, 2013 7:08 AM
*Subject:* Re: [Stoves] more on ocean acidification
Crispin,
The term that the scientific community uses is "ocean
acidification," and this is a very real environmental problem that
most people in the scientific community do not deny.
Many thanks.
Paul Olivier
On Thu, Aug 8, 2013 at 12:27 PM, Crispin Pemberton-Pigott
<[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
Dear Friends
I have been catching up on less important correspondence after
being in Asia for a while. There is one thing that still needs
to be put down like a broken-legged horse and that of course
is the idea that CO_2 ‘acidifies’ the ocean.
Because this is a high school chemistry level topic and I know
some of us took other things – or as the drummer in my
brothers class said, “I don’t remember Chemistry, I was stoned
that year.”
So for those of you who were also stoned that year or can’t
remember back that far, here is a simple review of pH with
special reference to the oceans, CO_2 and the false, badly
mis-named idea that CO_2 ‘increases the acidity of the oceans’.
The term pH refers to one of three distinct chemical
conditions which bear no relationship to each other. One is
called acidity, another is called alkalinity and third is
‘neutral’. Acidity and alkalinity are so different that if
equal in ‘strength’ they cancel each other completely leaving
a neutral condition. Different pH numbers refer to different
conditions.
Acid solutions (it has to be a solution with water in it) have
a chemistry that has Hydrogen atoms stripped of their single
electron. They are thus positively changed and seeking an
electron. This they will happily strip out of anything passing
by if they can find it, tearing the molecules to bits in the
process which is why acids ‘eat’ things.
Alkaline solutions (again, involving water) have molecules
that have an extra electron available (but not Hydrogen) and
are thus negatively charged. They will give away an electron
happily, often wrecking the object that receives it which is
why they eat things too but by a completely different process.
Both acidic and alkaline solutions can corrode things like
metals and rocks. One takes electrons and one gives them.
Quote opposite. The two conditions are so incompatible they
cannot be present at the same time in a mixed solution. It is
one, the other or ‘neutral’ if neither condition is present.
If you have an alkaline solution like the ocean (pH 7.8 - 8.4
depending on where you are, the time of day and a host of
other things) and you want to neutralise it so that all its
spare electrons are taken up by various things, you would have
to add something acidic. Adding CO_2 by bubbling it through
the seawater will convert some of the CO_2 (about 1%) to
carbonic acid which has a deficiency of electrons and that
acid will merge with whichever passing opportunity presents
itself. The corresponding alkaline molecule will be
neutralised as its spare electron will be passed to the
carbonic acid molecule (which has an H^- in it) and afterwards
neither will have any charge. Both will be neutralised if the
charges are balanced.
Because this happens very quickly, you cannot actually find
any carbonic acid in the ocean. Nor any other acid. The oceans
are not acidic at all. Any ocean has quite a store of
available electrons. Anything acidic you dump into the sea is
quickly neutralised and the pH drops slightly because it is
closer to a neutral condition. The oceanic capacity to hand
over electrons to any passing electron gap is very, very
large. There are several processes that would begin to offer
electrons but do not because the ocean is too alkaline to
allow them to get started. The ability to do this is called
the ‘buffering’ capacity. You may remember ‘Bufferin’ the pill
that neutralises stomach acid. The pill is alkaline and has a
large buffering capacity so it can hand a lot of electrons
over to the acid in the stomach, thus neutralising it. If you
took a whole bottle of Bufferin pills, your stomach would not
become less and less and less acidic. It would be neutralised
and then become alkaline and remains so until the spare
electrons were taken up in a neutralising process. People are,
in general, alkaline and should eat alkaline foods to remain
healthy. Excess acid is a problem.
By the same measure, reducing the availability of spare
electrons in the ocean water does not /at all/ make the water
acidic because it still has many more available electrons. It
is less alkaline, but it is not acidic at all – zero in the
‘acidic scale’ (there isn’t one).
In order to make a convenient metric for describing these two
conditions (which can cancel each other out very predictably)
the pH scale is used. Above 7.0 the solution has available
electrons and is termed alkaline. Below 7.0 is has a
deficiency of electrons and is called ‘acidic’. The reason for
the use of two different terms is they are chemically
dissimilar and cannot coexist.
Acidity of a solution is often represented by the Hydrogen
equivalent [H^+ ]_T which is the total number of Hydrogen
electrons that would be needed to neutralise it.
Alkalinity is often expressed in terms of its equivalence to
Calcium Carbonate CACO_3 in mg/Litre.
Q. Can CO_2 ‘acidify’ water?
A. Yes, if the water is neutral to begin with, or
already acidic, like rain water. Because rain water is acidic,
when it falls into the ocean it neutralises the drops of
seawater where it touches, before becoming diluted again by
the surrounding ocean. Rainwater does not impart to the ocean
any microscopic ability to withdraw electrons. It is quickly
neutralised by some seawater. When it is finished a few
seconds later, the acid has been destroyed.
Q. If one bubbled CO_2 through sea water, would it
eventually become acidic?
A. Yes. If you were to first neutralise all the
available electrons by mopping them up, after that it would
start to become acidic. It would not considered be acidic at
all until the whole body of the sample had first been
neutralised. These two conditions cannot co-exist.
Q. What about ‘acid rain’.
A. All rain is acidic. It is acidic because fresh
water absorbs CO2 rapidly from the atmosphere, converting
about 1% into carbonic acid. This falls into the oceans and
reacts with the available alkaline molecules. It is easy to
acidify rain. It is very difficult to neutralise the oceans
because of the rocks upon which they sit which have a huge,
massive buffering capacity. There are numerous life cycles of
creatures that withdraw CO_2 , CO3^-2 and HCO_3 - when it is
available. Obviously CACO_3 is high on the list for uptake by
creatures that make shells.
Q. Which has a larger impact on ocean alkalinity:
atmospheric CO_2 or rain containing CO_2 ?
A. Not clear. Rain has a big effect because oceans
actually have difficulty picking up enough CO_2 to drive the
level much above 600 ppm because of the limited surface area
compared with the volume and the huge buffering capacity.
Rain is much higher - about 1120 ppm CO_2 . Global rainfall
totals about half a million cubic kilometers per year and
contains about 600 billion tons of CO_2 which is about 20
times human
<http://www.global-greenhouse-warming.com/anthropogenic-climate-change.html>
output.
Q. What is the mass of the oceans?
A. 1.332 billion billion tons.
Q. Do reputable scientific organisations refer to
‘acidifying’ the oceans even though that is not, chemically,
what it happening?
A. Yes. NASA does
<http://www.earthobservatory.nasa.gov/Features/OceanCarbon/>.
“As we burn fossil fuels and atmospheric carbon dioxide levels
go up, the ocean absorbs more carbon dioxide to stay in
balance. But this absorption has a price: these reactions
lower the water’s pH, meaning it’s more acidic.”
Q. But it is less alkaline, not more acidic. Why do
they write that when it is untrue, in fact it is unscientific?
A. I don’t think anyone knows. Perhaps they too
missed Chemistry in high school.
+++++++
Regards
Crispin
*Sent:*Friday, July 26, 2013 3:25 PM
*Subject:* [Stoves] more on ocean acidification
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=noaa-scientists-embark-voyage-asses-ocean-acidification
--
Paul A. Olivier PhD
26/5 Phu Dong Thien Vuong
Dalat
Vietnam
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--
Paul A. Olivier PhD
26/5 Phu Dong Thien Vuong
Dalat
Vietnam
Louisiana telephone: 1-337-447-4124 (rings Vietnam)
Mobile: 090-694-1573 (in Vietnam)
Skype address: Xpolivier
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