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Let's face it every large conglomerate that can, does. Let's not forget how the HMO has greedily caused more havoc in the health care system than any other entity. Rising costs are strictly because of the greed of those at the top. Wal-Mart isn't the only one. Pamela Ellison Como Park Saint Paul ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mary Baker" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Monday, December 29, 2003 10:02 AM Subject: [StPaul] Wal Mart > St. Paul E-Democracy Links > http://www.e-democracy.org/stpaul/links.html > _____________________________________________ > > Pamela Ellison wrote: "In addition, another question that comes to mind, is > why aren't employees of Wal-Mart leaving in droves on their own accord, if > it is such a bad place?" > > To which I say: They are. That's how they keep the wages so low. It's a > common practice. I saw it a lot in the college town I came from. They hire > you at minimum wage and treat you okay until your first raise. Then the > abuse starts. They know that you're in college and have no money or > experience or union contacts or lawyer friends. They know it's not worth > your time to fight over it. They know that odds are they're going to lose > you as an employee in less than two years anyway. They know that being in a > college town, there's a constant inflow of needy, starving college students > who will take your job without the wage in a heartbeat. So as your wages > increase, they raise the bar so high that you can not possibly succeed. > Eventually the worker quits or is fired. And the employer is happy, because > then they can hire another poor sap for minimum to do the exact same work > you were doing for more. > > Wal-Mart and any other service industry with low entry level skill > requirements benefits by using the same practices. They don't need to be in > a college town, they just need to be in an area with a large enough pool of > unskilled labor - a lot of poor folk who won't risk their income to > unionize, don't have a lawyer friend or relative, and often don't know any > better than to accept the standards the big company lays out. > > ---------------------------------- > > Guy Western and Mitch said: > >"Democracy" in St. Paul has made some incredibly stupid decisions about the > >market. The record is terrible. > > The market, in its unassailable wisdom, has made some stupid decisions about > the future of St. Paul as well. > > I say: No one's ever gone broke betting on people's stupidity. There's lots > of that to go around. > > ---------------------------------- > > Russ Hanson said: > Every time the workers do stand up for themselves, the media always make it > sound like the workers are acting like spoiled little children with making > unreasonable demands. There simply isn't the public support for unions, > because of the word pictures being painted by the local papers. > > And the list goes on and on. We are living in an age where anti-union > attitudes are becoming > institutionalized on every level. > > Ain't it the Truth? > > I say: Yep, that's the Truth. Same can be said of many other important > issues of the day - Iraq, who's president, what's going on with the economy, > military spending, whether or not we have a stadium, the reality that the > overwhelming majority of third term abortions are for non-viable fetuses > that couldn't be detected earlier... But of course the Truth of these > matters is obscured by the free market use of large sums of money to endorse > a particular agenda, added to the general stupidity and ignorance of people > and their tendency to believe what they want to believe regardless of the > facts. > > ---------------------------------- > > Bob Spaulding wrote: "MAKE EMPLOYEES WORK FOR FREE. A Dakota County > district court judge recently certified a class-action lawsuit against > Wal-Mart. Several Twin Citians say Wal-Mart routinely made them skip meal > and rest breaks, and required them to clock out and then work without pay. > This practice can be observed nationwide at Wal-Mart." > > I say: It can be observed nationwide at a lot more places than Wal-Mart. > Every hourly wage job I've ever held did this, throughout college, just as > they did to my friends in similar jobs. Waffle House, IHOP, Dillards, JC > Penny's, Wal-Mart, Lion Food Markets, B. Dalton's Bookseller... It happens > wherever the workers don't have enough money to fight back. > > ---------------------------------- > > Bob Spaulding wrote: "The average full-time Wal-Mart employee would earn > about $17,000 per year. Well below anyone's definition of a living wage." > > I say: Actually, not true. It's above the so-called poverty line. By most > demographers standards, $17,000 a year is a living wage. I agree however > that you can't support a family on it or survive any sort of difficulty or > ever have any luxuries or put away any significant savings when you're > making that little. > > ---------------------------------- > > Mitch Berg writes: "If true, this is pretty slimy." [speaking of Wal-Mart > directing employees to government services] > > How is this slimy? How's it even relevant? My work for 3M, where I am paid > an admirable salary, also directs me to all the government services they > think I might need to have access to. United Way comes in each year and > gives out extensive paperwork on where I can go if I or my family has an > unmet need. Many of these are government services. Most of them are simple > charity and social services. How is it slimy for a company to make sure > their employees are aware of these things? > > So Wal-Mart pays its employees badly and makes sure they know where they can > go to get bread. Although I object to the pay and conditions, I'm not going > to object to the assistance. Just because they do five bad things to go > with every good one doesn't mean I will call the good act "slimy". > > ---------------------------------- > > Mitch Berg said: "Or, better yet, learn a trade." > > I agree. That's what I did. However, I am entirely aware that learning a > trade is not a route open to all people. Had I not had a full ride > scholarship, I would not have the good job I have today. And even if > learning a trade is possible, it's not something available at all stages of > life. Until a person has learned a trade, they will work in places like > Wal-Mart. And if they are unable to make a decent wage in Wal-Mart or > similar places, then they will be unable to pay to learn their trade. Thus > they will never be able to work anywhere other than Wal-Mart. It's a > vicious cycle. I'm not sure what the answer is, but I'm concerned that the > entire picture is not being seen. > > ---------------------------------- > > Paul Kuettal said: "Capitalism is the great equalizer. An unfortunate way > of stating what I meant, which would be more accurate if I were to say > capitalism is the greatest democratizer and prosperity engine extant and has > worked everywhere it has been tried." > > I say: Yeah, capitalism in theory is wonderful. Of course, so is communism > in theory. The problem is with the execution. In capitalism (as in > communism), someone will end up with more resources than someone else due to > random chance (inheritance, particular good looks, winning the lottery, > being elected leader, being subject to more lucky breaks in life than the > next sap, etc.) This person is then in an ideal position to use some of > their resources to interfere with free market distribution of goods and > services (or in communism, with the egalitarian distribution). People being > greedy folk, they nearly always do so. People who interfere with the free > market in this way do so with the intent of gaining more resources for > themselves. Sometimes they are successful. Once successful, they might be > able to repeat their success. Eventually they might amass a hugely > disproportionate allocation of resources, totally out of proportion to their > worth in a free market system and totally throwing the free market system > out of alignment. Historically the easiest way to accomplish this was by > monopoly - either of a particular commodity or the monopoly of owning the > means of production. In Wal-Mart's case and that of any large retail store, > the corporate stockholders have a monopoly over the franchise, which is the > means of production. They use this monopoly to extort the workers in the > same way that communistic countries force workers to labor for the state > without being able to reap much in the way of profit from their work. > > > Mary Baker, > East Side > > _________________________________________________________________ > Make your home warm and cozy this winter with tips from MSN House & Home. > http://special.msn.com/home/warmhome.armx > > _____________________________________________ > NEW ADDRESS FOR LIST: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > To subscribe, modify subscription, or get your password - visit: > http://www.mnforum.org/mailman/listinfo/stpaul > > Archive Address: > http://www.mnforum.org/mailman/private/stpaul/ > _____________________________________________ > For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html > For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract > _____________________________________________ NEW ADDRESS FOR LIST: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, modify subscription, or get your password - visit: http://www.mnforum.org/mailman/listinfo/stpaul Archive Address: http://www.mnforum.org/mailman/private/stpaul/ _____________________________________________ For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract
