About 3 years ago I was on a Citizens League study group looking at the problem of drop-outs. I can't speak for the group's conclusions, as I disagreed with some and have forgotten others. But one thing seemed clear: kids today aren't kids. Many of them can be drawn into worlds they've never dreamed of - arts and drama at Central, for instance - but many are ready to get on with being grown-ups. Some are actually supporting themselves or helping to support families. So I think more and more models have become job-focussed because it isn't right to expect everyone to be academics. We got so carried away with everyone's right to go to college that we may have lost track of the wholly honorable trades. As Mike says, they might very well be more lucrative and god knows we need them. The old concept of the 4-year high school really hasn't changed a lot. Why not apprenticeships at 15-16? Other countries do it. Our job in public school is to lay a foundation for citizens - knowing, for example, what the Constitution and its Amendments were really about - and to give everyone a taste of the variety of interests and occupations they might want to pursue. I wish someone had told me I didn't have to be a teacher, secretary or nurse!
You're right Tim, it's troubling. One of the things Cherie Yecke (and the Senate Ed. Cmte) seemed to accept was that her customers were business and parents. I wanted to holler "what about me???" My husband and I don't have children, but I've always seen us as sort of representatives -at- large, all the childless taxpayers who look at the kids as a whole. We've been supporting the education of other people's children for decades (happily, I might add) and I want some recognition of the fact that the kids are the customers. We need to be looking at what they need to have a reasonably fulfilling life. Whew. Somebody stop me. Gail O'Hare St. Paul ----- Original Message ----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, June 02, 2004 2:24 PM Subject: Stpaul Digest, Vol 6, Issue 4 Send Stpaul mailing list submissions to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://www.mnforum.org/mailman/listinfo/stpaul or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to [EMAIL PROTECTED] You can reach the person managing the list at [EMAIL PROTECTED] When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Stpaul digest..." ------------------------------------------------- Please - Take the St. Paul Job Shadow Survey Just 15 Questions: http://www.surveymonkey.com/s.asp?u=70658501784 ------------------------------------------------- Today's Topics: 1. Police Chief Transition (List Manager) 2. St. Paul High School Automotive Service Center (Tim Erickson) 3. Minneapolis City Council:Deaf panhandling? No way! (Ellie Kidder) 4. Warning About Personal Stuff (List Manager) 5. Re: St. Paul High School Automotive Service Center (Mike Fratto) 6. Penalty and process for smoking ban (Mary Baker) 7. Re: Minneapolis City Council:Deaf panhandling? No way! (M Charles Swope) 8. Re: Penalty and process for smoking ban (Tim Erickson) 9. Re: Penalty and process for smoking ban ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2004 11:54:29 -0500 From: List Manager <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: [StPaul] Police Chief Transition To: "St. Paul Issues Forum" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" For those who are following the transition in the Police Department. ------------------------------------------------- Harrington chooses 2 for police posts http://www.startribune.com/stories/462/4807120.html June 2, 2004 "The dominoes started falling at the St. Paul Police Department on Tuesday as incoming Chief John Harrington named the first members of his new management team." ------------------------------------------------- -- Tim Erickson List Manager St. Paul Issues Forum http://www.e-democracy.org/stpaul/ Hamline Midway Resident 651-643-0722 [EMAIL PROTECTED] St. Paul Links - http://www.e-democracy.org/stpaul/links.html "The St. Paul Issues Forum is a interactive e-mail discussion on important issues about St. Paul public policy. Participation is free and open to anyone. We currently have about 350 concerned citizens and community leaders subscribed to our discussion." ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2004 12:08:20 -0500 From: Tim Erickson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: [StPaul] St. Paul High School Automotive Service Center To: "St. Paul Issues Forum" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Last week, we were involved in a discussion about Job Shadowing programs in St. Paul High Schools. Today, I read that St. Paul high schools are actually implementing a program that "will start churning out certified young mechanics." According to the article, "It's all part of a push by the auto industry, school districts and technical colleges to pull more promising students into an increasingly high-tech career, educators say." Now, I suspect - that this is probably a worthwhile program and the "Automotive Service Center" has been there for 30 years. But, I can't help but wonder about the implications of using our public school system as an industry training program. Let me be clear, I'm undecided on this issue and eager to hear what others have to say. In Germany (and I think other European countries) this is very common. It has drawbacks, but also very real benefits for some students. I'm not even sure that this is NEW to our schools. Anyone have any comments? -------------------------------------------------- St. Paul seeking students with lots of drive James Walsh, Star Tribune http://www.startribune.com/stories/1592/4806885.html "While the St. Paul High School Automotive Service Center at Monroe Community School has been around in some form for about 30 years, this year the newly accredited center will start churning out certified young mechanics. The center is open to all St. Paul high school students. It joins seven other Minnesota high school programs transforming their auto shop classes into professional training programs." -------------------------------------------------- Tim Erickson Hamline Midway [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- ================================================= Tim Erickson http://www.politalk.com St. Paul, MN - USA 651-643-0722 [EMAIL PROTECTED] iChat/AIM: stpaultim ================================================= ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2004 14:20:25 -0700 (PDT) From: Ellie Kidder <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: [StPaul] Minneapolis City Council:Deaf panhandling? No way! To: [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I dont know about other target groups, but panhandling is not acceptable in my Deaf Community. I do get angry when I see Deaf person handling out " Pity me. I'm Deaf. I need money", once they see a person start signing... they'd run fast before I even can say "Get lost". THEY KNOWS. They do know it's not acceptable inside Deaf community. I even had chase them out. Some folks warned me that they can get violence when asking Deaf panhandlers to leave. It turned out it's s true. You do have to watch for your safety. Twice I asked each of them ( two of them) and they suddenly turn into ugly monster, threatening to hurt me. They often would say " You don't understand. I'm Deaf and I have a hard life!". I don't feel sorry for them One time when I was working as a caricature artist at Camp Snoopy ( Mall of America) a few years ago, I was scared wit out of my head when I saw Deaf beggar ( as I prefer to call them) soliciting a " pity card", I told him I'm Deaf and he froze on his t rack. Then he became angry telling me to get out of my way and let him do his business. I followed him in a safe distance telling hearing people DO NOT give this beggar a cent. He then turn to me swearing at me in ASL ( yes this happen at MOA). I told am employee to call for security and I continue to follow him out the door, all the while he was swearing at me. Security guard came a bit too late. It does make me angry because this is NOT how I want Deaf community to represent themselves. It is true that majority of Deaf community members do not have a job. It is true that only one percent have gone to college. It is true they have difficult life. It is true they have face barrier on every single day. BUT IT IS NOT true that people would have to feel sorry for them because I know if a Deaf person make up his or her mind to fight and be successful, they can do it. I want people to know Deaf person can do anything hearing person can do except to hear. That s it. I want to represent Deaf community members as an intelligent, members and can take care of themselves. They do not need anyone to feel sorry for them. But when a Deaf beggar come along, it is truly insult to our intelligent and our dignity. So when I read an article about Minneapolis Council taking on vote on anti- begging policy. Granted, I do support people's right to say anything as they darn well please. But it is NOT ok to anyone to give a dime to any Deaf beggars. I will still chase them out of Nicollett Mall if I must. So...I'm concern this might give Deaf beggars a message it is ok to beg. They can go somewhere else but NOT IN MY CITIES, either Minneapolis or St.Paul. Ellie Kidder Standish [EMAIL PROTECTED] --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2004 12:38:12 -0500 From: List Manager <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: [StPaul] Warning About Personal Stuff To: "St. Paul Issues Forum" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: Steve Clift <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" OK, I'm putting the entire forum on "HOLD" until 2:00 PM this afternoon. I'm doing this to make sure that everyone has time to read this message, before submitting any more posts. While there have been reports of "A FEW" participants on this list sending offensive or even threatening messages to each other in private, that is a private matter. One of the really important rules of this forum, is that what happens between individuals offline STAYS offline. By offline, I mean anything that's not a part of our public forum. Any additional attempts to bring personal matters into our forum will be responded to with an "OFFICIAL WARNING" which may lead to "REMOVAL" from our forum. I'll repeat. This forum has been set up as a place to talk about ideas and public policy, not EACH OTHER. If you have personal complaints or concerns about the behavior of other participants - take them to the list manager, or if necessary, the police. DO NOT, use this forum to publicly air your personal issues. Best wishes, -- Tim Erickson List Manager St. Paul Issues Forum http://www.e-democracy.org/stpaul/ Hamline Midway Resident 651-643-0722 [EMAIL PROTECTED] St. Paul Links - http://www.e-democracy.org/stpaul/links.html "The St. Paul Issues Forum is a interactive e-mail discussion on important issues about St. Paul public policy. Participation is free and open to anyone. We currently have about 350 concerned citizens and community leaders subscribed to our discussion." ------------------------------ Message: 5 Date: Wed, 02 Jun 2004 13:36:53 -0500 From: "Mike Fratto" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: [StPaul] St. Paul High School Automotive Service Center To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Schools had shop classes back in my day. Most of the guys who took those classes would get after school jobs in those areas. I know that many skilled trades are looking for workers. The tech schools are looking for students. Yet they can't seem to get them due to the focus on college and the easy money graduates make. Now don't write and tell me stories of how you have to work very hard for your $20,000 to 35,000 job. I know the statistics only too well. Yet that is the high school students perception. Of course the reality is that someone who learns a trade is more likely to start making annual incomes above $50,000. Of course this does include over time in many cases. So I think its great that there is at least one alternative track for those students who choose to take it. Mike Fratto Payne Phalen >>> Tim Erickson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 06/02/2004 12:08:20 PM >>> Last week, we were involved in a discussion about Job Shadowing programs in St. Paul High Schools. Today, I read that St. Paul high schools are actually implementing a program that "will start churning out certified young mechanics." According to the article, "It's all part of a push by the auto industry, school districts and technical colleges to pull more promising students into an increasingly high-tech career, educators say." Now, I suspect - that this is probably a worthwhile program and the "Automotive Service Center" has been there for 30 years. But, I can't help but wonder about the implications of using our public school system as an industry training program. Let me be clear, I'm undecided on this issue and eager to hear what others have to say. In Germany (and I think other European countries) this is very common. It has drawbacks, but also very real benefits for some students. I'm not even sure that this is NEW to our schools. Anyone have any comments? -------------------------------------------------- St. Paul seeking students with lots of drive James Walsh, Star Tribune http://www.startribune.com/stories/1592/4806885.html "While the St. Paul High School Automotive Service Center at Monroe Community School has been around in some form for about 30 years, this year the newly accredited center will start churning out certified young mechanics. The center is open to all St. Paul high school students. It joins seven other Minnesota high school programs transforming their auto shop classes into professional training programs." -------------------------------------------------- Tim Erickson Hamline Midway [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- ================================================= Tim Erickson http://www.politalk.com St. Paul, MN - USA 651-643-0722 [EMAIL PROTECTED] iChat/AIM: stpaultim ================================================= _____________________________________________ NEW ADDRESS FOR LIST: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, modify subscription, or get your password - visit: http://www.mnforum.org/mailman/listinfo/stpaul Archive Address: http://www.mnforum.org/mailman/private/stpaul/ ------------------------------ Message: 6 Date: Wed, 02 Jun 2004 13:52:05 -0500 From: "Mary Baker" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: [StPaul] Penalty and process for smoking ban To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Last week I posted a couple questions I'll repeat because I never saw an answer. 1. What's the process for the smoking ban under consideration? Is it a city council resolution, and if so when will they vote on it? Is it a legislature issue, and if so when will they vote on it? Will it be going on the fall ballot as a measure sent to the voters? I think Thune mentioned the process a couple months ago (something about reading it at two meetings, then having a discussion, then a vote?) 2. What's the penalty under consideration for violating the proposed smoking ban? Mary Baker East Side _________________________________________________________________ Is your PC infected? Get a FREE online computer virus scan from McAfee� Security. http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 ------------------------------ Message: 7 Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2004 12:14:32 -0700 (PDT) From: M Charles Swope <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: [StPaul] Minneapolis City Council:Deaf panhandling? No way! To: Ellie Kidder <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii --- Ellie Kidder <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: "So when I read an article about Minneapolis Council taking on vote on anti- begging policy. Granted, I do support people's right to say anything as they darn well please. But it is NOT ok to anyone to give a dime to any Deaf beggars. I will still chase them out of Nicollett Mall if I must. So...I'm concern this might give Deaf beggars a message it is ok to beg. They can go somewhere else but NOT IN MY CITIES, either Minneapolis or St.Paul." I can understand why a hearing impaired person would be uncomfortable seeing another using that condition as an excuse to beg. However, that shouldn't lead to the conclusion that it's OK to interfere with a beggar's right to ask for money. Isn't it up to the person being solicited to decide whether they want to donate? As long as the beggar isn't being pushy or creating a nuisance, what right does Ms. Kidder have to interfere in a private transaction between two other people? I think the behavior described in her post is way out of bounds. Hearing impaired people ought to have the same rights to beg as any other citizen. The fact that Ms. Kidder is personally offended that someone would use their impaired hearing condition as an excuse doesn't give her the right to harrass them. The 1st Amendment doesn't apply only to speech you approve of. Charlie Swope St. Paul, Ward 1, > > > I dont know about other target groups, but > panhandling is not acceptable in my Deaf Community. > I do get angry when I see Deaf person handling out " > Pity me. I'm Deaf. I need money", once they see a > person start signing... they'd run fast before I > even can say "Get lost". THEY KNOWS. They do know > it's not acceptable inside Deaf community. I even > had chase them out. Some folks warned me that they > can get violence when asking Deaf panhandlers to > leave. It turned out it's s true. You do have to > watch for your safety. Twice I asked each of them ( > two of them) and they suddenly turn into ugly > monster, threatening to hurt me. They often would > say " You don't understand. I'm Deaf and I have a > hard life!". I don't feel sorry for them One time > when I was working as a caricature artist at Camp > Snoopy ( Mall of America) a few years ago, I was > scared wit out of my head when I saw Deaf beggar ( > as I prefer to call them) soliciting a " pity > card", I told him I'm Deaf and he froze on his t > rack. > Then he became angry telling me to get out of my > way and let him do his business. I followed him in a > safe distance telling hearing people DO NOT give > this beggar a cent. He then turn to me swearing at > me in ASL ( yes this happen at MOA). I told am > employee to call for security and I continue to > follow him out the door, all the while he was > swearing at me. Security guard came a bit too late. > > It does make me angry because this is NOT how I want > Deaf community to represent themselves. It is true > that majority of Deaf community members do not have > a job. It is true that only one percent have gone to > college. It is true they have difficult life. It is > true they have face barrier on every single day. > BUT IT IS NOT true that people would have to feel > sorry for them because I know if a Deaf person make > up his or her mind to fight and be successful, they > can do it. I want people to know Deaf person can do > anything hearing person can do except to hear. That > s it. I want to represent Deaf community members as > an intelligent, members and can take care of > themselves. They do not need anyone to feel sorry > for them. But when a Deaf beggar come along, it is > truly insult to our intelligent and our dignity. > > So when I read an article about Minneapolis Council > taking on vote on anti- begging policy. Granted, I > do support people's right to say anything as they > darn well please. But it is NOT ok to anyone to give > a dime to any Deaf beggars. I will still chase them > out of Nicollett Mall if I must. So...I'm concern > this might give Deaf beggars a message it is ok to > beg. They can go somewhere else but NOT IN MY > CITIES, either Minneapolis or St.Paul. > > > Ellie Kidder > Standish > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger > _____________________________________________ > NEW ADDRESS FOR LIST: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > To subscribe, modify subscription, or get your > password - visit: > http://www.mnforum.org/mailman/listinfo/stpaul > > Archive Address: > http://www.mnforum.org/mailman/private/stpaul/ ------------------------------ Message: 8 Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2004 14:14:41 -0500 From: Tim Erickson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: [StPaul] Penalty and process for smoking ban To: "St. Paul Issues Forum" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" >1. What's the process for the smoking ban under consideration? Is >it a city council resolution, and if so when will they vote on it? We are talking about a city ordinance that would be enforcable in all of St. Paul. Here is what Dave Thune posted last week. "The ordinance will be laid over now for 2 weeks, then amendments considered. If any are made the vote will lay over another week before it would be up for a vote." So, it appears to me that ordinance might be voted on either next week or the following week, depending upon whether or not amendments are offered. If anyone would like to correct this, please do. >2. What's the penalty under consideration for violating the proposed >smoking ban? I assume that any penalties would be against bar or restaurant owners for allowing smoking on their facilities. I'm not sure which city department would enforce this ordinance. ---------------- Chuck Repke's Comments ------------ Chuck posted this on May 11th: "this is an ordinance, so it requires four readings at the council. Today will be first reading (no discussion); next week should be second reading (author could/might amend language to get it exactly the way he/she wants it before the public hearing); the following week will be third reading and public hearing that happens at 5:30 p.m. (the council only holds public hearings two evenings a month, so the third reading could be delayed a week if it didn't line up right) at the end of that meeting they close the public hearing; the next week is fourth reading and final passage, they vote on the issue. If it is amended at all, it has to return for a final vote again the following week." --------------------------------------------------- Best wishes, Tim Erickson Hamline Midway [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- ================================================= Tim Erickson http://www.politalk.com St. Paul, MN - USA 651-643-0722 [EMAIL PROTECTED] iChat/AIM: stpaultim ================================================= ------------------------------ Message: 9 Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2004 13:23:35 -0600 (MDT) From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [StPaul] Penalty and process for smoking ban To: "Tim Erickson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 The PP today said in an article that SP council members have all settled into firm positions on this issue. Is this true? What are the individual positions? I tried to call a couple of council people today but everyone is forwarding their calls to voice mail, it seems. I sent a copy of my spreadsheet showing nonsmokers potentially will spend more money than smokers, to each of the council people. As soon as I am done with this email, I will put it on my website at http://www.elmwood.com/smoke_seekers.xls Anyone who wants to download it, feel free. -- Bob Treumann, Saint Paul Please Note: Replies to this email address all go to the trash except where the subject line contains a recognized mailing list identifier, such as [TCMETRO] ------------------------------ _____________________________________________ NEW ADDRESS FOR LIST: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, modify subscription, or get your password - visit: http://www.mnforum.org/mailman/listinfo/stpaul Archive Address: http://www.mnforum.org/mailman/private/stpaul/ _____________________________________________ For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract End of Stpaul Digest, Vol 6, Issue 4 ************************************ _____________________________________________ NEW ADDRESS FOR LIST: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, modify subscription, or get your password - visit: http://www.mnforum.org/mailman/listinfo/stpaul Archive Address: http://www.mnforum.org/mailman/private/stpaul/
