------------------------------------------------- To Join: St. Paul Issues Forum Rules Discussion Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ------------------------------------------------- "There are several dozen others in St. Paul who have a wider and deeper experience in local government than Corky, whose entire public service career has been as a police officer." This was written by Andy Driscoll. It is incorrect. William Finney was on The St. Paul School Board from 1989 to 1992. Tait Danielson West 7th
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Send Stpaul mailing list submissions to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://www.mnforum.org/mailman/listinfo/stpaul or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to [EMAIL PROTECTED] You can reach the person managing the list at [EMAIL PROTECTED] When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Stpaul digest..." ------------------------------------------------- Please - Take the St. Paul Job Shadow Survey Just 15 Questions: http://www.surveymonkey.com/s.asp?u=70658501784 ------------------------------------------------- Today's Topics: 1. Mayor's Race (Andy Driscoll) 2. RE: Mayor's Race (Guy Western) 3. Re: Let's vote for the Lesser Evil (Eva Young) 4. War and Smoming ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) 5. Re: Unfairenheit 9/11 ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) 6. Re: Unfairenheit 9/11 (Tom & Elsa Thompson) 7. Re: Re: Unfairenheit 9/11 (The Goldsteins) 8. Re: Let's vote for the Lesser Evil (Mike Fratto) 9. RE: Private shouldn't necessarily stay that way (Mary Baker) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2004 18:04:33 -0500 From: Andy Driscoll Subject: [StPaul] Mayor's Race To: "St. Paul Discuss" Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" I�m very concerned that some sort of stampede to is under way coronate Corky Finney as the next mayor of St. Paul. Few St. Paulites like Corky more than I, but I have serious reservations about this discussion. First of all, it is far too soon to be presuming that other candidates at least as qualified to govern a city - perhaps more so - are not to be found. There are several dozen others in St. Paul who have a wider and deeper experience in local government than Corky, whose entire public service career has been as a police officer. And, although, as chief, he�s had to deal with budgets and management issues as a mayor surely must, the broader exposure to issues of local governance are not part of his r�sum�. These are things that do not disqualify Corky from consideration, but these are a few of the issues we must ask about. Frankly, I worry out loud about the number of police officers in local government. AT the moment, we have two former police officers out of the seven city council members, and I am severely ill at ease over the dominance of people whose professions have generally been limited to law enforcement setting policy for a huge range of issues confronting this city and its place in the region and the state. This is not a matter of who, but what. The Mayor�s deputy is a former cop and former head of the statewide police officer�s federation. For all his attractiveness as a person (and I�ve never yet heard a woman not semi-swoon over the tall, charismatic chief), Corky remains a police officer whose advocacy in government has, by virtue of that job, kept that advocacy narrow. Men and women with a deep understanding of the myriad matters of comprehensive planning, zoning, economic development, public works - water and sewer and street infrastructure, health department, libraries, open spaces and recreation, not to mention City Charter mandates and the city�s relationship with the Met Council and state government should not be discouraged from coming forward as potential replacements for Kelly ­ and he does need replacing. Let�s cool our heels on the mayor�s race for the moment rather than rush to assume the only challenger to Kelly should be Corky Finney. Andy Driscoll Crocus Hill/Ward 2 ------ ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2004 20:16:45 -0500 From: "Guy Western" Subject: RE: [StPaul] Mayor's Race To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII > [Original Message] > From: Andy Driscoll > > I�m very concerned that some sort of stampede to is under way coronate Corky > Finney as the next mayor of St. Paul. Few St. Paulites like Corky more than > I, but I have serious reservations about this discussion. I never met a discussion I didn't like. If people are starting to talk about alternative candidates for mayor already, I'd say that says more about Mayor Kelly's unpopularity than anything else. There'll be plenty of time and opportunity to talk about candidates other than Corky Finney. Elections are like trains--you're always late for the last one and always in time for the next. If anyone has another potential candidate in mind for the next election, I say let's hear about him or her. Bring 'em all on. I suppose there are those who don't like to see this kind of discussion get out of the control of the DFL insiders' club, but isn't that what e-democracy is for? Guy Western the West Side ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2004 20:31:56 -0500 From: Eva Young Subject: Re: [StPaul] Let's vote for the Lesser Evil To: Eric Mitchell , [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed > >His son- not him, but more importantly, the case is in >another juridiction being investigated. Maybe you >should call and let them know your 'discovery'. The case is being investigated. One thing that is worth noting is that after this incident, Mayor Kelly sent a letter to Lavender expressing his concern about the incident - and that it in no way represented the city of St Paul. I have no idea whether Finney ever acknowleged the incident. There was certainly no letter to Lavender from the St Paul police chief after this incident - which reflected very badly on the St Paul police department. Eva Young Near North Minneapolis [EMAIL PROTECTED] Blog is up: http://lloydletta.blogspot.com Saying creationism deserves equal time with the theory of evolution in the classroom is like saying I deserve equal time with Pavarotti at the Sydney Opera House. ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2004 22:17:53 -0500 (CDT) From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [StPaul] War and Smoming To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 WAR PART ( see below for smoking part) Saw Farehnheit 9/11 tonight. It was a great movie, very powerful. I feel we have a huge debt to the young men and women who serve in our armed forces. We need to make a down payment on that debt by throwing out the liar and self serving oil man who sent them there. One thing that sickened me most was the glee that the war profiteers expressed over the prospects of making huge profits in Iraq. War profiteers ought to be imprisoned. Wasn't profiteering illegal in WW2? Now, it is patriotic. If anything, Moore did not hit hard enough. I felt he missed out on two important issues. In one section of the movie, they had news announcers saying the number of dead soldiers in Irag "250 dead, 300 dead 3235 dead, 4000 ded etc... 800 + dead" I expected the next scene would be Wolfawitz testifying to the 911 commision that he really didn't know how many had died, and guessed "about 500". Over 700 had died by that time, and all you had to do to know that was to pay attention to the nightly news. Moore didn't show Wolfie ignorantly guessing at the number of dead. The other thing he missed was the connection of Chalabi as an agent of Iran. Chalabi, the hero of democracy, The companion of Laua Bush at the State of the Union speach, the spy who sold us out to Iran, doesn't show up in the movie. SMOKING PART After the movie, my family went to Red Lobster and had dinner. An expensive place to eat, but it is the last time I go there. They have a smoking section there, and while the air was tolerable in the non-smoking section, i have resolved to be eve firmer in my future resolve to stay out of an establishment that allows smoking. I asked the waitress if she would get me a card so I could write a note to the management. She looked worried, until my wife jumped in to tell her that we were only planning to comlain about the smoky air. She enthusiastically got us a card, and even suggested that we mention how much we had spent at dinner that night. She told us that she gets sinus infections, and her doctor told her that she needed to stay out of smoky environments. She was in her thirties, and had two kids. I told her I understood that she can't just quit her job, because there aren't that many places to work where the air is clean. So, I dedicate this email to the mother of two from Red Lobster, and promise her that I will do what I can to put pressure on the businesses that force her to breathe the smoke and aggravate her illnesses. -- Bob Treumann, Saint Paul Please Note: Replies to this email address all go to the trash except where the subject line contains a recognized mailing list identifier, such as [TCMETRO],[StPaul], MP-N ... ------------------------------ Message: 5 Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 00:50:14 -0400 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [StPaul] Re: Unfairenheit 9/11 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Michael Moore is very good at what he does, propaganda. For all the noise in the end Bush haters will love it and supporters of the Presdident won't. I recommend to anyone interested in reading an effective rebuttal to Moore's cinematic trickery Christopher Hitchen's article "Unfairenheit 9/11" available at Slate.com. Bill Holland Mounds Park > > > ------------------------------------------------- > To Join: St. Paul Issues Forum Rules Discussion > Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > ------------------------------------------------- > WAR PART ( see below for smoking part) > > Saw Farehnheit 9/11 tonight. It was a great movie, very powerful. I > feel we have a huge debt to the young men and women who serve in our armed > forces. We need to make a down payment on that debt by throwing out the > liar and self serving oil man who sent them there. > > One thing that sickened me most was the glee that the war profiteers > expressed over the prospects of making huge profits in Iraq. War > profiteers ought to be imprisoned. Wasn't profiteering illegal in WW2? > Now, it is patriotic. > > If anything, Moore did not hit hard enough. I felt he missed out on two > important issues. In one section of the movie, they had news announcers > saying the number of dead soldiers in Irag "250 dead, 300 dead 3235 dead, > 4000 ded etc... 800 + dead" I expected the next scene would be Wolfawitz > testifying to the 911 commision that he really didn't know how many had > died, and guessed "about 500". Over 700 had died by that time, and all > you had to do to know that was to pay attention to the nightly news. > Moore didn't show Wolfie ignorantly guessing at the number of dead. > > The other thing he missed was the connection of Chalabi as an agent of > Iran. Chalabi, the hero of democracy, The companion of Laua Bush at the > State of the Union speach, the spy who sold us out to Iran, doesn't show > up in the movie. > > SMOKING PART > > After the movie, my family went to Red Lobster and had dinner. An > expensive place to eat, but it is the last time I go there. They have a > smoking section there, and while the air was tolerable in the non-smoking > section, i have resolved to be eve firmer in my future resolve to stay out > of an establishment that allows smoking. > > I asked the waitress if she would get me a card so I could write a note to > the management. She looked worried, until my wife jumped in to tell her > that we were only planning to comlain about the smoky air. She > enthusiastically got us a card, and even suggested that we mention how > much we had spent at dinner that night. She told us that she gets sinus > infections, and her doctor told her that she needed to stay out of smoky > environments. She was in her thirties, and had two kids. I told her > I understood that she can't just quit her job, because there aren't that > many places to work where the air is clean. > > So, I dedicate this email to the mother of two from Red Lobster, and > promise her that I will do what I can to put pressure on the businesses > that force her to breathe the smoke and aggravate her illnesses. > > -- > Bob Treumann, Saint Paul > Please Note: Replies to this email address all go to the trash except > where the subject line contains a recognized mailing list identifier, such > as [TCMETRO],[StPaul], MP-N ... > > _____________________________________________ > NEW ADDRESS FOR LIST: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > To subscribe, modify subscription, or get your password - > visit: > http://www.mnforum.org/mailman/listinfo/stpaul > > Archive Address: > http://www.mnforum.org/mailman/private/stpaul/ ------------------------------ Message: 6 Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 01:53:14 -0500 From: "Tom & Elsa Thompson" Subject: [StPaul] Re: Unfairenheit 9/11 To: "stpaul forum" Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Thank you for this link. Very informative and gives a different perspective. Tom Thompson Como Park ------------------------------ Message: 7 Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 05:04:33 -0500 From: The Goldsteins Subject: Re: [StPaul] Re: Unfairenheit 9/11 To: "St. Paul Issues Forum" Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed I would suggest that since the closest to St Paul this movie is playing is Har Mar, this topic should be left to the Roseville/Falcon Heights Issues Forum Jules Goldstein Mac Groveland ------------------------------ Message: 8 Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 07:40:47 -0500 From: "Mike Fratto" Subject: Re: [StPaul] Let's vote for the Lesser Evil To: , , , Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Why does the action by a single officer reflect badly on an entire police force? Why does the action of an adult son or daughter reflect badly on their parents? The fact that Chief Finney did not send a letter to Lavender does not reflect anything, except that maybe he was waiting for a report on the full investigation. Since I don't know the reason, I can't speculate. Since you don't know the reason you shouldn't speculate. Mike Fratto Payne Phalen >>> Eva Young 06/27/2004 8:31:56 PM >>> ------------------------------------------------- To Join: St. Paul Issues Forum Rules Discussion Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ------------------------------------------------- > >His son- not him, but more importantly, the case is in >another juridiction being investigated. Maybe you >should call and let them know your 'discovery'. The case is being investigated. One thing that is worth noting is that after this incident, Mayor Kelly sent a letter to Lavender expressing his concern about the incident - and that it in no way represented the city of St Paul. I have no idea whether Finney ever acknowleged the incident. There was certainly no letter to Lavender from the St Paul police chief after this incident - which reflected very badly on the St Paul police department. Eva Young Near North Minneapolis [EMAIL PROTECTED] Blog is up: http://lloydletta.blogspot.com Saying creationism deserves equal time with the theory of evolution in the classroom is like saying I deserve equal time with Pavarotti at the Sydney Opera House. _____________________________________________ NEW ADDRESS FOR LIST: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, modify subscription, or get your password - visit: http://www.mnforum.org/mailman/listinfo/stpaul Archive Address: http://www.mnforum.org/mailman/private/stpaul/ ------------------------------ Message: 9 Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 09:57:50 -0500 From: "Mary Baker" Subject: RE: [StPaul] Private shouldn't necessarily stay that way To: [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed A "self-perpetuating board" is what? How is it distinguished from a non-self-perpetuating board? Mary Baker East Side >From: "Bruce Leier" >Reply-To: >To: , "'Mary Baker'" >CC: >Subject: RE: [StPaul] Private shouldn't necessarily stay that way >Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2004 11:36:50 -0500 > >The below makes sense to me. I want to underscore the "problem" with >self-perpetuating boards. In my 25 years of Organizational Development >work >I have developed a growing antipathy with them as an organizational model. >It does not belong within a civic sphere that calls itself democratic. I >discount such an organization's claims about its mission, operations and >(especially) values by 75%. > >Responsively yours, >Bruce Leier > >-----Original Message----- >From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On >Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] >Sent: Friday, June 25, 2004 20:49 >To: Mary Baker >Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >Subject: Re: [StPaul] Private shouldn't necessarily stay that way > > > >The e-democracy board is a well meaning group of public spirited >individuals, but they are not elected by anyone, and they pick their own >replacements. There is no requirement that any of their actions and >deliberations need to be public. > >The 'private stays private' rule creates a situation where all of us >participants are allowed to take our issues to the authorities, but we are >not allowed to discuss them with each other, except in private emails, and >we are not allowed to report back to the group what the 'authorities' have >told us. We are not even allowed to share the contents of one private >email in another private email. > >I was reprimanded a couple of years ago because I sent a private email to >someone quoting what the list manager had said to me when he threatened me >with banning. I had posted opinions about the requirement of saying the >pledge of allegiance in public schools. I brought this topic up on the >Minnesota list, because members of the Republican party were advocating >it. I was told I could only discuss it on the National Issues list, >because there was no bill in the state legislature to require the pledge. >The bill was introduced and passed one year later. > >When the list managers take it upon themselves to be the single voice of >authority, and require the rest of us to keep silent, they are asking for >trouble. As I told Tim in a private email on this topic, if this approach >to "e-democracy" is successful, then the effort on behalf of democracy >will have failed. If we want to promote democracy, we need to promote >openness and power based on consent of the governed. The e-democracy list >managers have power only because it was conferred upon them by slef >perpetuating board. > >Reasonable people can disagree about when and how someone should be >banned. The essential thing is that the process needs to be OPEN and >PUBLIC. As long as it is secret, it can never be fair. > > >-- >Bob Treumann, Saint Paul >Please Note: Replies to this email address all go to the trash except >where the subject line contains a recognized mailing list identifier, such >as [TCMETRO],[StPaul], MP-N ... > >_____________________________________________ >NEW ADDRESS FOR LIST: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >To subscribe, modify subscription, or get your password - visit: >http://www.mnforum.org/mailman/listinfo/stpaul === message truncated === --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone. _____________________________________________ NEW ADDRESS FOR LIST: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, modify subscription, or get your password - visit: http://www.mnforum.org/mailman/listinfo/stpaul Archive Address: http://www.mnforum.org/mailman/private/stpaul/
