Interesting. Apparently free speech continues to be arbitrary at the Farmers Market. A few years ago I witnessed the same manager (Jack Gerten) authoritatively telling volunteers politely passing out anti-stadium literature that they were not allowed on Market grounds. This happened even while there was a Twins entourage, including Tony Oliva, holding forth in the middle of the Market. This was in the middle of the referendum debate and was clearly a "political event" being welcomed by .the Market. Eventually the Market Manager relented when several of us suggested there might be First Amendment issues. Both parties coexisted nicely and didn't appear like any shoppers were being hindered from purchasing their zuchinis or free range chickens. So at the time I gave Gerten the benefit of the doubt and hoped he'd learned a lesson. But it does appear that free speech continues to depend on what the Market Manager decides is allowable on a particular occasion. One wonders what other arbitrariness is involved in the operation of our Farmers Market? Who is on the board and who do they represent? Who actually controls policy on what is clearly public space receiving public subsidy and is seeking even more to open a new indoor market? Jon Kerr West Side
----- Original Message ----- From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Sunday, July 04, 2004 8:21 AM Subject: Stpaul Digest, Vol 7, Issue 4 > Send Stpaul mailing list submissions to > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://www.mnforum.org/mailman/listinfo/stpaul > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > You can reach the person managing the list at > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of Stpaul digest..." > > > ------------------------------------------------- > Please - Take the St. Paul Job Shadow Survey > Just 15 Questions: > http://www.surveymonkey.com/s.asp?u=70658501784 > ------------------------------------------------- > > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Public space and the St. Paul Farmers Market (Mary C. Zanmiller) > 2. RE: Public space and the St. Paul Farmers Market (Paul Gleeson) > 3. RE: Public space and the St. Paul Farmers Market > (Tom & Elsa Thompson) > 4. Re: RE: Public space and the St. Paul Farmers Market > ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) > 5. RE: Public space and the St. Paul Farmers Market (Eric Mitchell) > 6. RE: Public Space and the Farmers Market (Tom & Elsa Thompson) > 7. RE: RE: Public Space and the Farmers Market (Guy Western) > 8. Re: Re: District Council Overhaul ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) > 9. Re: Public space and the St. Paul Farmers Market > ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2004 16:13:02 -0500 > From: "Mary C. Zanmiller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Subject: [StPaul] Public space and the St. Paul Farmers Market > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > I witnessed the worst of contemporary USA at the Saint Paul Farmers' > Market this morning (July 3, 2004). A Democratic National Committee > (DNC) worker was conversing with two people on the sidewalk along the > southwest corner of the Saint Paul Farmers' Market. As I walked by the > market manager was telling the DNC worker that he could not talk to > people at the Market. I indignantly interfered and said, "He has a > right to speak with people." The Market manager replied, "No, he > doesn't, and customers are complaining." One of the people he was > speaking to said, "I am a customer and I want to talk with him." I > added, "On a public sidewalk he has a right to free speech." The Market > manager replied, "The Market leases the sidewalk as well and he has to > leave." I replied, "The next time I see our Republican mayor speaking > to people at the Market I will find you and you will have to ask him to > leave." > > This is plain wrong. The people of Saint Paul paid for this market. > Hundred of thousands of public dollars was recently invested to upgrade > this space. The people of Saint Paul generously support the market by > buying from the farmers selling their products. So in Saint Paul we > no longer honor the free speech that is guaranteed in the constitution. > Many times I have seen Mayor Randy Kelly and Senator Norman Coleman > shaking hands as they campaign for their next great office. So some > people can campaign and others can't? Who gets to choose? Who sets the > litmus test? > > The Saint Paul Farmers' market is the commons if their ever was one. > How ironic that this happened the day before our observance of the > Declaration of Independence - the birth of democracy, with its' > guarantee of free speech. > > You know it makes me want to sign up to be a DNC volunteer, I think I > will take the Northwest corner and the sun won't be in my eyes. If any > readers know how I can join up; please contact me. > > It is a time-honored tradition for the Saint Paul Farmers' Market to be > a public space. What happened this morning is a "tragedy of the > commons." The Saint Paul Farmers' Market should honor free speech and > never, ever again kick people out that are engaged in our democratic > process. > > Happy 4th of July. > > Peace follows freedom and justice, > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Mary C. Zanmiller > West Seventh Neighborhood > Saint Paul, MN USA > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2004 18:38:56 -0500 > From: "Paul Gleeson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Subject: RE: [StPaul] Public space and the St. Paul Farmers Market > To: "Mary C. Zanmiller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" > > Mary, > > I have watched clip-board-carrying, fresh-faced young people wearing DNC > t-shirts accost pedestrians at the Grand and Victoria intersection. I > wonder........are they volunteers or do they receive compensation for > contributions collected? Do you know? > > Greenpeace and other environmental organizations commonly employ > commissioned sales representatives to canvass neighborhoods in St. Paul > selling memberships. For many of us, it's turned into a joke and, frankly, > I feel sorry for the young idealists who take these jobs. Has the DNC > adopted this model? > > As far as the Farmer's Market is concerned.........I see candidates and/or > their volunteers there all the time during the two or three weekends before > a primary or general election. I suspect there will be no change this year. > Benanev was there a lot and nobody kicked him out. > > Isn't Randy Kelly a Democrat? How many years in the legislature? What's > this Republican stuff? > > Enjoy the 4th. > > Paul Gleeson > St. Paul > > > -----Original Message----- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Behalf Of Mary C. Zanmiller > Sent: Saturday, July 03, 2004 4:13 PM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: [StPaul] Public space and the St. Paul Farmers Market > > I witnessed the worst of contemporary USA at the Saint Paul Farmers' > Market this morning (July 3, 2004). A Democratic National Committee > (DNC) worker was conversing with two people on the sidewalk along the > southwest corner of the Saint Paul Farmers' Market. As I walked by the > market manager was telling the DNC worker that he could not talk to > people at the Market. I indignantly interfered and said, "He has a > right to speak with people." The Market manager replied, "No, he > doesn't, and customers are complaining." One of the people he was > speaking to said, "I am a customer and I want to talk with him." I > added, "On a public sidewalk he has a right to free speech." The Market > manager replied, "The Market leases the sidewalk as well and he has to > leave." I replied, "The next time I see our Republican mayor speaking > to people at the Market I will find you and you will have to ask him to > leave." > > This is plain wrong. The people of Saint Paul paid for this market. > Hundred of thousands of public dollars was recently invested to upgrade > this space. The people of Saint Paul generously support the market by > buying from the farmers selling their products. So in Saint Paul we > no longer honor the free speech that is guaranteed in the constitution. > Many times I have seen Mayor Randy Kelly and Senator Norman Coleman > shaking hands as they campaign for their next great office. So some > people can campaign and others can't? Who gets to choose? Who sets the > litmus test? > > The Saint Paul Farmers' market is the commons if their ever was one. > How ironic that this happened the day before our observance of the > Declaration of Independence - the birth of democracy, with its' > guarantee of free speech. > > You know it makes me want to sign up to be a DNC volunteer, I think I > will take the Northwest corner and the sun won't be in my eyes. If any > readers know how I can join up; please contact me. > > It is a time-honored tradition for the Saint Paul Farmers' Market to be > a public space. What happened this morning is a "tragedy of the > commons." The Saint Paul Farmers' Market should honor free speech and > never, ever again kick people out that are engaged in our democratic > process. > > Happy 4th of July. > > Peace follows freedom and justice, > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Mary C. Zanmiller > West Seventh Neighborhood > Saint Paul, MN USA > > > _____________________________________________ > To Join: St. Paul Issues Forum Rules Discussion > Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > _____________________________________________ > NEW ADDRESS FOR LIST: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > To subscribe, modify subscription, or get your password - visit: > http://www.mnforum.org/mailman/listinfo/stpaul > > Archive Address: > http://www.mnforum.org/mailman/private/stpaul/ > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2004 20:16:09 -0500 > From: "Tom & Elsa Thompson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Subject: [StPaul] RE: Public space and the St. Paul Farmers Market > To: "stpaul forum" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > Is no place off limits for the DNC/DFL? Can't we go anywhere without having to hear politics? I don't care if it's the DNC/DFL or GOP. When I go to the Farmers Market I want to shop amongst the fresh produce and not amongst the stench of politics. Please leave politics out of some places in our lives. > > If they actually do lease the property than they pay to be there. Whether or not public dollars went into the project is of no relevance. Only the terms of the lease the city signed. If you have a grievance it is not with the Farmers Market it is with your city council, or whomever, signed the lease that gave the lease rights to the Farmers Market. > > Tom Thompson > Como Park > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 4 > Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2004 22:17:06 -0500 (CDT) > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: Re: [StPaul] RE: Public space and the St. Paul Farmers Market > To: "Tom & Elsa Thompson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Cc: stpaul forum <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Message-ID: > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 > > If you want to stay away from politics, you should stay away from all > forms of organized public spaces, including farmers markets and public > roads, libraries, post offices, medical centers, restaurants and bridges. > How do you think any of these things would come to be without the vision > and effort of competent people who choose to devote themselves to public > service? > > I think that the attitude that you profess, that politics has a "Stench", > is a deadly one for our civilization, and you should be ashamed of such an > attitude. While some politicians behave shamfully, there is no lack of > similar shameful behavior among every form on human endeaver, from > religion to business to education to labor. This is just the human > condition. You always will have bad people, in every profession, from the > priesthood to the oil business. > > I personally want to thank all the people who serve us, the public, by > running for office, serving in office, and putting up with unfounded and > unfair criticism like Tom Thompson expresses here. > > Bob Treumann, Como Park > > Tom & Elsa Thompson said: > > Is no place off limits for the DNC/DFL? Can't we go anywhere without > > having to hear politics? I don't care if it's the DNC/DFL or GOP. When I > > go to the Farmers Market I want to shop amongst the fresh produce and not > > amongst the stench of politics. Please leave politics out of some places > > in our lives. > > > > If they actually do lease the property than they pay to be there. Whether > > or not public dollars went into the project is of no relevance. Only the > > terms of the lease the city signed. If you have a grievance it is not > > with the Farmers Market it is with your city council, or whomever, signed > > the lease that gave the lease rights to the Farmers Market. > > > > Tom Thompson > > Como Park > > -- > Bob Treumann, Saint Paul > Please Note: Replies to this email address all go to the trash except > where the subject line contains a recognized mailing list identifier, such > as [TCMETRO],[StPaul], MP-N ... > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 5 > Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2004 21:11:18 -0700 (PDT) > From: Eric Mitchell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Subject: RE: [StPaul] Public space and the St. Paul Farmers Market > To: Paul Gleeson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, "Mary C. Zanmiller" > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > --- Paul Gleeson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Mary, > > > > I have watched clip-board-carrying, fresh-faced > > young people wearing DNC > > t-shirts accost pedestrians at the Grand and > > Victoria intersection. I > > wonder........are they volunteers or do they receive > > compensation for > > contributions collected? Do you know? > > I do know. The answer is no. As a matter of fact, most > Democratic fundraisers are paid a fee/salary that is > constant. It does not change with increase amounts > raised or goals missed. It's different on the > Republican side and some non-profits. If these kids > were really from the DNC, they are paid some kind of > low monthly stipend or are volunteers who are > reimbursed expenses. > It's not about the money, it's about grassroots > support idealism. > > Yes, the Farmer's Market recently received about 1 > million dollars from the St Paul taxpayers. Ask the > manager did he care about politics when he came to St > Paulites with is hat in his hand looking for a million > dollars. The 'stench' was sweet green back then. > > For those who want to get away from being 'bothered' > while shopping fruit, you always got Cubs and Rainbow. > It's inside on private property. > > Happy Fourth! > > Eric Mitchell > Payne Phalen > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! > http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 6 > Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2004 00:04:59 -0500 > From: "Tom & Elsa Thompson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Subject: [StPaul] RE: Public Space and the Farmers Market > To: "stpaul forum" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > I didn't criticize anyone in political office (although I will often criticize the DNC/DFL positions, as they deserve it). I praise my President George W Bush and Vice President Dick Cheney. I praise my governor Tim Pawlenty. They are making the hard choices and good decisions for all of us. > > Just leave your political propaganda out of my face when I'm not specifically looking for it, such as on this forum. To tell me I can't go to the Farmers Market without having DNC/DFL "volunteers" in my face is ridiculous. It should be my right not to have to listen to propagandists' garbage (on either side) amongst the sweet smell of flowers. Keep your politics where it belongs, in political forums and the political arena. Not everywhere that's public is a place that has to have politics drug up. > > I served the public for 21 years as a public servant. I know what it takes. I also know that politics has taken on a stench in the last few years. The agenda of personal destruction is prevelant. It's a win at all cost scenario now. That's not politics, that's whats destructive and endangers our civilization. Wanting to be free from vile personal attacks while shopping is not too much to ask. > > By the way, since that property is leased, it's not public property while the Farmers Market is there. They have a lease to use and occupy that space. > > I hope the list manager notices that a party did single me out by name and that the list manager will take appropriate action against that person. > > Tom Thompson > Como Park > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 7 > Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2004 02:31:30 -0500 > From: "Guy Western" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Subject: RE: [StPaul] RE: Public Space and the Farmers Market > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII > > > > [Original Message] > > From: Tom & Elsa Thompson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > I praise my President George W Bush and Vice President Dick Cheney. > > I praise my governor Tim Pawlenty. They are making the hard choices > > and good decisions for all of us. > > In order to be worthy of anyone's praise, these men had better do their > duty to uphold every citizen's constitutional right of free speech and > assembly. Just because I might characterize or imagine any encounter, or > potential encounter, with an opposing political viewpoint as "propaganda", > "garbage", "in my face", or "vile personal attacks" isn't really adequate > justification for more trampling on the constitutional freedom of other > Americans. > > I'm not sure about the fine points of how much of the sidewalk, curb and > paved parking areas of the Farmers' Market are leased or sublet by whom or > from whom, but it has the overwhelming appearance of a public market place. > Somewhere between your parked car and your favorite fruit stand, someone's > right to carry a clipboard and talk about politics is going to be > constitutionally protected, as well it should be. I'm willing to bet that > the behavior described here, even if it involves TWO people in khaki shorts > with clipboards asking to take a moment of your time, falls far short of > anything that could be considered riot. > > Political speech isn't protected because it's "garbage"; it's a primary > freedom--one we should celebrate even as we praise our leaders. Political > volunteers can walk right up to the front door of your home. You, of > course, can turn them away. In the Farmers' Market, you can just keep > walking if you don't care to listen and, I assure you, the flowers will > smell just as sweet. > > Guy Western > the West Side > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 8 > Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2004 03:24:43 EDT > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: Re: [StPaul] Re: District Council Overhaul > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" > > A couple of points on this, first I may have been the one yelling the loudest > about the funding formula but the initiative and my instructions to act on it > came from the District 2 Board. > > The City created the District Council system in the 70's by recognizing those > neighborhoods that were politically active at the time and creating Districts > where there were not active identified neighborhood organizations (East Side > and North End). The Districts were no where near equal in size or population. > District Councils were originally funded on a case by case grant basis and > in the early 80's that meant that the best grant writers got the most money. > In 1990 the current funding formula was developed that gave 80% of the money > evenly to each district and 20% proportionately (making sure to "hold harmless" > those districts who had larger grants than the formula would allow). > > The proposed formula is 75% population, 15% poverty index, 5% non-English > speaking, 5% jobs. So, you start with the current funding for the system, take > 75% of it and distribute it based on a districts population, next you take 15% > of the money and base it on a district population below 100% of poverty (15% > is the number of people in St. Paul who fall below that line), then you take 5% > of the monies and divide it by the number on non-English speaking adults > (city total) and lastly you take 5% and divide it based on the number of jobs in > the district. > > The total is the amount that each district would receive. The additional > $116,000 that is needed is to bring the six smallest districts up to $37,000 a > year. That is Downtown, West Seventh Street, Summit Hill, St. Anthony Park, > Como, and Hamline Midway. Under the above formula these small district don't > reach that level of funding and the additional money is needed to make them > viable. > > Though there is general agreement on this being a better formula there is one > district that is looking for a significant increase (to complicated to get > into) not under the proposed guidelines and finding the additional dollars to > make this happen is also in question. We shall see if it passes. The lack of > fairness in the system is not spread out but concentrated in Wards 5, 6 and > part of 3 (Highland). Wards 2 and 4 lose nothing if this falls apart since all > of the highly funded small districts are in those two wards and the impact in > Ward 1 and 7 is marginal. > > Chuck Repke > District 2 E. D. > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 9 > Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2004 08:21:34 -0500 > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: Re: [StPaul] Public space and the St. Paul Farmers Market > To: "Mary C. Zanmiller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > I was also at the farmer's market yesterday and saw the workers. I too am a > customer who talked with the workers - (for disclosure's sake I am a long time > active DFLer) Their approach was standard street organizing and it was fun to > see non-ad based political action going on. > > What is interesting is that over the years political activity at the market jas > occurred often. I may be wrong but I believe I have seen representative of both > mayoral campaigns in the last few campaigns there. Along with other statewide > offices. > > Sadly my last conversation with Paul Wellstone was at the market on the Saturday > before the plane went down. I will alway carry a bittersweet memory of Paul > shaking hands and litsening to the"customers" as he moved through the crowd. > > > > Quoting "Mary C. Zanmiller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > > > I witnessed the worst of contemporary USA at the Saint Paul Farmers' > > Market this morning (July 3, 2004). A Democratic National Committee > > (DNC) worker was conversing with two people on the sidewalk along the > > southwest corner of the Saint Paul Farmers' Market. As I walked by the > > market manager was telling the DNC worker that he could not talk to > > people at the Market. I indignantly interfered and said, "He has a > > right to speak with people." The Market manager replied, "No, he > > doesn't, and customers are complaining." One of the people he was > > speaking to said, "I am a customer and I want to talk with him." I > > added, "On a public sidewalk he has a right to free speech." The Market > > manager replied, "The Market leases the sidewalk as well and he has to > > leave." I replied, "The next time I see our Republican mayor speaking > > to people at the Market I will find you and you will have to ask him to > > leave." > > > > This is plain wrong. The people of Saint Paul paid for this market. > > Hundred of thousands of public dollars was recently invested to upgrade > > this space. The people of Saint Paul generously support the market by > > buying from the farmers selling their products. So in Saint Paul we > > no longer honor the free speech that is guaranteed in the constitution. > > Many times I have seen Mayor Randy Kelly and Senator Norman Coleman > > shaking hands as they campaign for their next great office. So some > > people can campaign and others can't? Who gets to choose? Who sets the > > litmus test? > > > > The Saint Paul Farmers' market is the commons if their ever was one. > > How ironic that this happened the day before our observance of the > > Declaration of Independence - the birth of democracy, with its' > > guarantee of free speech. > > > > You know it makes me want to sign up to be a DNC volunteer, I think I > > will take the Northwest corner and the sun won't be in my eyes. If any > > readers know how I can join up; please contact me. > > > > It is a time-honored tradition for the Saint Paul Farmers' Market to be > > a public space. What happened this morning is a "tragedy of the > > commons." The Saint Paul Farmers' Market should honor free speech and > > never, ever again kick people out that are engaged in our democratic > > process. > > > > Happy 4th of July. > > > > Peace follows freedom and justice, > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Mary C. Zanmiller > > West Seventh Neighborhood > > Saint Paul, MN USA > > > > > > _____________________________________________ > > To Join: St. Paul Issues Forum Rules Discussion > > Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > _____________________________________________ > > NEW ADDRESS FOR LIST: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > To subscribe, modify subscription, or get your password - visit: > > http://www.mnforum.org/mailman/listinfo/stpaul > > > > Archive Address: > > http://www.mnforum.org/mailman/private/stpaul/ > > > > > ------------------------------ > > _____________________________________________ > NEW ADDRESS FOR LIST: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > To subscribe, modify subscription, or get your password - visit: > http://www.mnforum.org/mailman/listinfo/stpaul > > Archive Address: > http://www.mnforum.org/mailman/private/stpaul/ > _____________________________________________ > For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html > For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract > > End of Stpaul Digest, Vol 7, Issue 4 > ************************************ _____________________________________________ To Join: St. Paul Issues Forum Rules Discussion Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] _____________________________________________ NEW ADDRESS FOR LIST: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, modify subscription, or get your password - visit: http://www.mnforum.org/mailman/listinfo/stpaul Archive Address: http://www.mnforum.org/mailman/private/stpaul/
